Particularly in tournaments, dice etiquette is very important. It is one of the key things that can lead to charges of bad sportsmanship but is one of the easiest things to ensure you get right.
Below is a list of things that I've picked up over the past decade or so of playing tournament games:
1. Always say what you are rolling for first - pretty self explanatory but absolutely vital. Rolling a dice and then saying "Oh that was for my ward save/lascannon etc is guaranteed to rile your opponent. The easiest thing is to be open with what rolls are for before you roll.
2. Always roll your dice where you opponent has a clear view of the results - regardless of which game you are playing, it is a social contract. You owe it to your opponent that they can see the outcome of any role. I don't want the uncertainty of dice rolls behind terrain etc.
3. Be consistent - nobody likes an opponent who is inconsistent in their application - taking any benefit but rejecting any negatives. Therefore it is important to establish any conventions you use upfront - and then consistently apply them. For instance, if I roll too many dice I will pick them all up and re-roll them regardless of the result. Whereas if I roll too few then I will pick up the extra required dice and roll them. Similarly, establish a convention for "cocked dice". I reroll any die that is not "flat on the green". That means it needs to be on the table flat - not on terrain, not on a movement tray, not on a book, piece of paper, cards or army list. The key is to be totally consistent in the application of that convention.
4. Pick up "Misses/Fails", leaving "Hits" - there is a reason for this....it leaves no uncertainty. If you pick up hits then there is the chance of mistakes whereas if you leave hits and remove misses, that uncertainty is removed. I always leave the resultant hits and ask my opponent "Looks Good?" Before I move on.
5. Symbols on one face only - with the rise of customised - or "club" dice - there is an opportunity for confusion if the markings are not consistent. Using Skaven dice with symbols on the "6" for some whereas they are on the "1" for others is sure to rile your opponent. Stick to symbols on a single face to ensure there is no confusion.
6. Dice Use - the default is that you bring and use your own dice. You should never touch your opponent's dice without their permission. This is just general politeness.
7. "Special " Dice - wargamers are a superstitious lot - as well as being strange. One gamer at our club used to identify non-performing dice, then line up his other dice to watch as he smashed the non-performers with a hammer. I have a set of "Strawberry" Chessex dice and I swear that they roll unbelievably well or unbelievably badly - never consistently average. They are just too "scary" to use.
8. Opponent's Rights - sometimes dice may get on a "hot" run. In a tournament situation your opponent always has the right to ask to ask to either use the same dice as you or that you use a different set of dice. As a tournament organiser I never want to get to the stage whether table dice are required but that means that players must be willing to accommodate opponents when asked.
9. "Hot" Dice - it goes without saying that if you suspect that a certain set of dice or an individual dice roll consistently well then you should definitely not use them. Dice are a vehicle to introduce chance into a game and if you suspect that your dice are skewed to a particular set of outcomes then it is clearly unacceptable to use them. This is particularly true in a game like KoW where it is always desirable to roll high.
So it general boils down to three key planks - consistency, openness and fairness. Most issues can be resolved by discussion or by both players using the same dice if there is any suspicion of dice being skewed.
From a TO's POV the last thing he wants with his event is controversy and once a player has aspersions raised around their dice etiquette it can haunt them for a long time. To this end the best solution when playing any wargame is to be both flexible and accommodating.
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On the subject of fairness i am not sure its fair to say to someone "You Dice are too hot, you cant use them". People get attached to their dice as you would expect them to in a game where chance plays a huge roll.
ReplyDeleteSomething else to consider is that people will often only see the hits but ignore the misses. I have had many people say to me that i was rolling well for a turn, 2 turns, the game when in truth i was rolling perhaps a bit higher than average.
Unless the dice are loaded ,or otherwise modified, the dice have no bearing on the side that comes up. If unmodified dice are rolling well then thats gravity not the dice and swapping the dice around wont change it.
Allowing your opponent to use the dice as well resolves all issues
DeletePerhaps all this can be cleared up fairly and evenly. I think every tournament needs a priest of Fortuna on hand to determine the luck factor of the day. By slaughtering one mere bull and checking the stars the night before we can determine how each players dice should roll for the day and then multiply the variation by the faith of each participant.
ReplyDeleteThat way the only complaint for higher dice rolls can be indeed confirmed as "he with higher faith rolls higher" and all issues will be absolved fairly. This prevents bias like only seeing the few good rolls and not the bad or average ones or simply not enjoying a defeat etc.
I noticed sometimes that painted models perform better than unpainted. If someone believes that somebodies models are too "hot" consistently should sharing the models be advised or will unbiased models be supplied?
I think we are gonna need clarification on hot arc templates and precise tape measures too for etiquette purposes.
In all seriousness though unless dice are actually loaded or proven to be "good dice" surely there should be a "stop wasting our time" option?
Why not let your opponent share in the good luck?
DeleteSharing luck breaks rule number 9 I think.
DeleteAs stated in the post "just let your opponent use the dice as well' - issue resolved
ReplyDeleteWhat both Rex and Jayden seem to be missing is that dice games such as KOW have 2 player's and both posts only focus on one side of the coin.
ReplyDeleteI would like invite you to a game where what described in Pete's post was only happening to you. It would leave a sour taste in your mouth, leading sometimes not wanting to play that person.
I am assuming that in NZ there is not a huge community of gamers and if you get known as a guy that has hot dice and won't do any of the listed above. You may find that you hurt the field.
To put it simply by having people that don't want to play against you due to dice ettique sucks. Not only will you loose games due to it but you will may be responsible for the not so loud to stop registering.
If anyone at an event refuses to compromise for the person across table for dice ettique then it is normally best not to bother showing up as you are going to do more harm then good.
Nick
"Playing a game like KOW has 2 players," so lets cater to the guy who, without proof etc, claims your dice are too good to use?
DeleteReally I think a person who blames his losses on bad dice is the bad sport here. Who would you rather play? The person who played politely and nicely the entire game (AKA a normal person) or the guy who blames the dice for his bad fortune to the point where he wants you to use new dice?
The situation which came up the other day also was not a poor etiquette one. The player initially asked for a set of another players dice so as to not mix his wound dice and rolling dice up. The player gladly offered him another set of his rather large dice selection and then after the player borrowing the dice lost was the legitimacy of not sharing dice and "hot dice" brought up.
The issue is more easily resolved simply by letting someone use their dice that they brought to the event unless you can actually show proof that they are "too good" over making it into an issue. If they must find proof they will find they are wrong anyway 99% of the time.
At the end of the day it's up to the TO but the issue is a silly one, so why cater to the silly side?
You are missing the point. This becomes a non-issue if you both use the same dice. The reluctance to change or share dice is where the uncertainty starts.
DeleteJust so every knows I was Jayden opponent and what I said to Jayden was for his benefit before it becomes a problem and I won't list what was as I don't want people to get preconceived ideas about Jayden.
DeleteI was not originally going to post on here as I didn’t want to turn this in to a back and forth over arguing was happened or what is right. But Jayden please don’t skew what was said, it’s not a nice feeling to have my words changed into fallacy and I will leave it at that.
Listen to some sound advice from Pete is a good thing, as there are more years of gaming experience then you have probably been alive (don’t quote me on this), I think I can soundly say that neither of us wants to see what comes of bad dice etiquette as we have both seen it. It’s not pretty!
It has happened that i have been on the receiving end of a opponents excellent dice rolls and not for one second did i ever consider it to be because my opponent had modified dice and i never considered accusing them of foul play/cheating as thats basically what happened here, well perhaps i misspeak a bit. Jayden wasn't accused of cheating, he was accused of everything but cheating.
DeleteNobody accused anybody of modifying dice Rex so please don't misrepresent the situation. The opponent (Greg) asked if Jayden would share his dice or would use another set of dice. In both cases the answer was "no".
DeleteThis post pointed out that that is not accepted etiquette.
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DeleteNever mind, its all silly.
DeletePete can you do a write-up on painting scores?
ReplyDeleteNo painting at the moment Jeff. Boy did you pick the wrong time to be fighting for freedom
DeleteJudging by the state of flux the gaming community is in I think I timed it well...
Deleteand funnily enough I'm pretty sure I only ever benefited from paint scores
DeleteAnd that was the key thing. Nobody ever suffered from the Painting Checklist, people only benefited. You were a great case in point. Give clear, attainable conditions and those that satisfy them lift their paint score and the community as a whole raises its "appearance".
DeleteThere was no Skyfall
To be honest I feel that this whole post was inspired by the events of this particular game, and maybe should have been dealt with on the day/ privately. Then once settled, opened it up for discussion once the dust had settled.
ReplyDeleteAlthough in saying that, I do enjoy a good #gate
DeleteOf course it was inspired by what happened on the day. It was discussed with no resolution.
ReplyDeleteI still contend that if there is an suspicion that the dice outcomes are not totally random - and that does not imply cheating at all - then an opponent can ask to use the dice or that you use a different set of dice. I don't understand why anybody would have a problem with that.
And fwiw I think the rest of the post is a useful guide on what seems to be the accepted etiquette picked up over the past twenty years rolling dice - so hopefully of some value.
ReplyDeleteTo be perfectly blunt i don't like the fact that a good friend was basically accused of cheating, or at the very least it was heavily implied he was.
ReplyDeleteI think the actual post itself was general solid advice, and i competely agree with it.
Again you are misrepresenting it Rex. No one accused Jayden of anything other than not agreeing to share his dice or to substitute in another set.
DeleteThe request was made because one player didn't think that the dice were providing complete random rolls. At no stage was anyone accused of modifying dice or intentionally bringing non random dice. So please refrain from saying people were accusing Jayden of cheating.
Any time you use dice with engraved pips or shudder, an engraved symbol on one face, you're playing with unbalanced dice. If you really want to play with proper dice, you may as well spend $$$ on precision casino or backgammon dice. Anything else and complaining about your luck or the disparity in rolls is taking the michael. Using flawed dice to begin with renders most of these arguments moot.
ReplyDelete