A few people have asked me why I haven't jumped into Age of Sigmar. Most of the WHFB podcasts have been cheerleaders for the new game, notably the UK based ones.
I've indicated my reluctance to embrace the game has been a combination of things. Firstly, I wasn't really looking for a skirmish game and if I was I'm pretty sure that there are others with better credentials. Secondly, I liked ranked units - on movement trays - the aesthetic appeals to me more. The third reason is that I'm harbouring a bit of resentment over GW's treatment of gamers over the past year. I had an expectation that when GW released five large campaign books that there was some understanding that they would continue to support the game and world they were shilled for. Yeah, I'm a bit of a sook that way.
However there is another reason - I really hate the Stormcast models. By that I mean the whole aesthetic. Yes I understand the commerciality of introducing Space Marines into Fantasy - and let's not kid ourselves that the Stormcast are anything but Fantasy-esque Astartes. They know Little Timmy will buy them - especially if the local GW Hobby Centre Manager tells him how cool they are. But they are not.
They are lazy. The Design Studio phoned them in when they were told to put Space Marines in Fantasy.
- Space Marines with big swords - tick
- Space Marines with big hammers - tick
- Space Marines with big bows - tick
- Space Marines with Boltthrowers - tick
- Space Marines with Bazooka bow thingey - tick
- Space Marines with wings and big swords - tick
They must have loved that assignment.
"Ok Jes...we want Space Marines with big weapons - but no back pack. There's only three rules - 1. They are Space Marines; 2. Little Timmy can paint them preferably using our $55 Gold Spray; and 3. They are Space Marines. Think you can do that?"
And that's what we got. Sure there are character variants like Stormcast on Thunderwolf sorry weird lizard thing. Or Mr. Hammer Cape - "Great Design Team, now we can have a rule that gives him a shooting attack - like his cape throws hammers - how cool is that!"
The whole model release for Stormcasts is just so lazy. Minimal thought, minimal anything but tedium.
I don't think I have ever seen a range from GW that I have so disliked in 15 years from aesthetic point of view. The nearest would be Cadian IG which were similarly lazy.
And for me in the end aesthetics is what does it. It's what makes me want to play the game. Six or seven years ago a few 40kers here got into Confrontation. I looked at the game and just did not like the models. I saw people use them as GW alternatives and they did nothing for me. The Privateer Press aesthetic is the same to me. It just does not appeal.
I may have been brainwashed by GW over the years but the release of the Stormcast shows that - in my eyes at least - you can polish a turd.
I'm waiting to see future AoS releases before I write the game off. At the moment there seems to be a lot of people willing to give the rules and the models a free pass. I'll stay on the fence and hope the Design Studio gives us better product.
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I am surprised that so many WHFB players do like the game as it killed WHFB in order to be made, in other words we lost WHFB so that AOS could become a game system
ReplyDeleteI am really glad you added on those "other words" because I was getting very lost and confused.
DeleteAoS didnt kill WHFB. It was already dead in GW's eyes. (well at least not an easy revenue stream). At least we got an ending to the stale WHFB saga
DeleteTo be honest GW killed WHFB. It is a fantastic ruleset and setting with awesome races and models. I know of many gamers who were just getting back into it. The upcoming Total War game would have brought in a new generation of gamers. If they supported the community and priced the models better they could be successful. People do not like uncertainty, they screwed themselves.
DeleteThe timing of the Total War game is funny, i do think it will get people interested in the setting only to find that the setting no longer exists.
DeleteI reckon it shows that the end times and AoS was a lot shorter term than people make out, say the total war game has been in the works for (Utter guess, nfi) say 3-4 years. End times came out last year, so meaning that 2-3 years ago WHFB was still running a long as always and a decision was made there abouts.
Delete150 pages of poorly written ambiguous core rules, another 16 books or race sepcific rules with very little attempt to balance, all of which required another 100 pages of FAQ's and Erratas to play, and that's before you add in tournament player packs to try and fix things to be a little fairer.
DeleteI would hardly call that a fantastic ruleset McCrae
Have a look at Infinity Tim... apparently one of "the best" games out there...
DeleteWFB rules/faq/errata weren't so bad by comparison.
I will vouch for infinity, fantastic models, interesting rules. The amount of times I've lost guys be being a tad too ballsy in my own turn to ARO are too many to count.
DeleteAll the rules are free, so doesn't hurt to try with random models. Also interesting shit like Silhouette profiles, meaning certain guys will always abide by a certain size for gaming purposes, but you can model them freely (have a guy landing in via grav-chute, but not have the negatives of him being taller in the game etc).
Have a crack! Go Ariadna, space were-wolves FTW!!
Yeah I've had a look at Infinity. What is it 256 pages of core rules and tables? There's complex and then there's Infinity complex. From people I've spoken to however its not ambiguous and reasonably clear to a degree. The size of the rules is a huge barrier to entry IMO.
DeleteBut then again its designed to be a small scale skirmish game and not a massed formation skirmish based game. Apples and Oranges.
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DeleteYou can probably drop that down to a third in all honesty mate. A fair whack of that is explaining in thorough detail how certain things will come into effect etc. I suggest looking into it if you can get your group into it, or pick up operation icestorm, is an awesome starter set, terrain, starter rules, enough models for a medium army for both sides that is easily expanded upon.
DeleteAnother massive benefit is the on-line army builder and (recently updated) linked wiki..
Playing Kings of War and waiting for the Ninth age to become more polished. I am liking the discussion so far.
ReplyDeleteI don't really care either way on the Stormcasts. The GW paint job is terrible on them and twitter has been on fire with the amount of incredible painted ones.
ReplyDeleteI don't like the Khorne stuff, just simple churn and burn crap. Technically good, but terrible aesthetic.
As far as the game goes, I don't think I will be investing anything more in 8th/8.5/9th age as it will be dead before it leaves the blocks.
I am sitting on the fence with AoS. No real uptake in NZ atm means no tournament scene for a while, which is what I mainly play. Player driven rules or 2nd edition might change things but GW is peddling a dead duck until they sort their shit out and realize nobody wants these loose god awful rules without structure.
Games Workshop. Your GAMES Workshop! Make a f**king GAME! Here's a clue, its in your name...
You could organise an AoS tournament......Conquest is coming up.
DeleteSee I'm totally the otherway. I think the Khorne stuff looks great....a real advance on existing models and far more Khorne like. Far better than the awful ET khorne models.
DeleteNeil was going to try out AOS for Vermintide. He asked if any of us at Panzer were keen. Not a hand was raised. He then asked if anyone would be keen for WHFB and a lot of hands went up... Personally I am looking forward to attending as many WHFB tournaments as possible in the second half of the year, I am still really enjoying it.
DeleteIts pretty hard to say your keen when there's no structure in place or proposed tournament pack to guide you. I wouldnt have put my hand up either
DeleteChicken and Egg though Tim.
DeleteI was quite prepared to put in the time to come up with a player pack for a first run (in NZ) of AoS. However, if it doesn't look like I'll get the numbers to support it, together with all the other risks of running a tournament, I'm not going to put in the time.
If I'm given a reasonable indication of sufficient numbers interested first, I will develop a Player Pack
Drop me a line Neil, I have been working on something that may garner some interest
DeleteGame Sname....I just dislike the Stormcasts. Reinforce my hate please.
ReplyDeleteThey aren't awful models but I don't like them. I dislike the storyline and I dislike the rules after having a read of them. Glad I've moved on from gw or id be pretty fricken upset right about now. If I was a brand new player AOS might hold some attraction but as an old school wargamer it just doesn't do it for me. Ots not the simplicity of the rules as much as the lack of sense they make that puts me off.
DeleteI think the storyline is a massive improvement over WHFB. That and the fact it will continuously evolve means more engagement IMO.
DeleteAgree on the rules front. Simple rules are good. Senseless rules are s**t
Have converted a Stormcast eternal into a Truescale Lamenter, works fine for that, but I must say the models themselves are terrible. Like all the lines of the armour don't line up where they shouldn't be able to move, the shape of the rib cage on them is different on both sides depending how the model is leaning, armour shouldn't move and contour like that. So all the people saying how amazing they are....isn't the case.
ReplyDeleteThat and GW's penchant for having those 'stretched' parts on models nowadays so they can come out of the mould ok...
I have been trying to keep away from all things internet, but I like Pete so still visit his blog.
ReplyDeleteI suppose it's still possible to hate an army aesthetic and like the game, if that was the only issue. For example, I LOATHE Skaven. Clearly a rip off of the 'Mrs. Frisby/Secrets of NIMH' rats, but I still loved WFB.
Hopefully something strikes your fancy later on. Or not, in which case I hope I'll see ya at a WFB event :)
I heard about the Panzerschrek vote, and I think if you want to gauge numbers for an AOS tournament, the very WORST place to do it right now is a WFB tournament... I'd say even those few who were interested wouldn't want to 'out' themselves in front if their peers :P
Over here in AU, there is probably 4-5 AoS tournaments kicking off in the next 1-2 months, each with maybe 4-8 people signed up. There is an 8th tournament in Newcastle (driving up there for that, boo yeah!) that has capped out at 100 players, with a a massive waiting list, that is toward the end of october....
DeleteAnd the best place to ask for a vote would be at an AoS tournament, which doesn't exist. Actually there were a couple of half raised hands for interest but not enough for me to commit.
DeleteYou have to start somewhere Tim. Vermintide is, relative to most tournaments, of low financial risk. It is also a one day event probable suitable to testing a new game system.
However, in the small fantasy tournament scene in NZ you have to find out the layout of the land at a fantasy tournament don't you?
AOS is a new fantasy product aimed at a scify market. It's bound to appeal to nether scify or fantasy gamers. Perhaps they should have left WFB to die slowly while they worked on an all new Scify range. Why when their biggest competitor is a game company and keeps taking their market share
ReplyDelete, based on being better rules writers, GW continue to want to be a model company is beyond me. A change in direction is needed at GW not a change of game name.
Vote with your feet and wallet don't buy there crap till they make a better game and a fantasy game that ranks up. Hardly anyone wrote to Cadbury a few years ago about there change to the dairy milk recipe but the sales tanked and they changed back quickly enough
ReplyDeleteI think you have a good point there Richard. Although I can't see GW going back on what they have done.
DeleteAoS will have had a "erm good" initial uptake due to existing players wanting to give it a go... releasing the rules free... was a surprise to everyone I think, but will have given no financial gain - rather perhaps repaired a little of GWs "reputation".
So I wonder at the end of the day if AoS financials will look any better than WFBs did.
I don't like any of the new models thus far myself. At all. In any way. There are nicer models coming out from other smaller companies atm (Atlantis Miniatures springs immediately to mind, as does Raging Heroes) than any of the AoS ones.
Obviously there will be new models for AoS over time as the current WFB ones are phased out or replaced... am curious to see what we end up with there.
Like Pete I love the ranked up models aesthetic for a fantasy (or historic) wargame. For Sci-fi games I prefer the skirmish aesthetic. And yet LotR is something that I never liked either - even when they tried to make it a "mass battle" game. With all the background and hype for LotR and the hobbit... how well did that do?
Frankly when it comes down to it... AoS seems on a par with LotR, Mordheim, Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, Man O War. It will have a following, but I suspect that GW will from now on only have 1 flagship game. 40k.
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DeleteIn the UK at least, sales have been bigger than 40k 7th. In NZ and AU, they have been rather low from what I can gauge. No idea about the US
DeleteThey will want it to work and sell it's clear it will apeal to kids with the simplistic rule set and hey they look like space marines. But I can't but hope it tanks and someone get fired at gw
DeleteBut there's your problem. There's no-one there worth firing. Even Rick Priestly and the Perry brothers have left. Andy Chambers went years ago and I think the soul of the company began to fade about then. Since then a lot of the design has been fairly lazy. Alessio Cavatore kept things going but he's bailed too. Over the last few years there has been little new 'cool' but lots of making things bigger or more obvious. Space Wolves got marines on wolves FFS- where's the cleverness there? Imperial Knights for everyone because everyone wants BIG. So, yeah, Space Marines in Warhammer? No surprise, because no effort.
DeleteI for one am enjoying reading the wargamerau forum of people trying to be positive about AoS. Futility is funny.
ReplyDeleteHow funny is that thread haha. Love it!!
ReplyDelete