So the last 24 hours have probably been the most dramatic in my time involved in GW gaming. The leaks of perhaps four pages of the End Times: Archaon book - two fluff and two rules - have thrown the gaming world into a real tizz.
Now I haven't read any of the fluff and have actively avoided discussion and spoilers but it seems at the end of Archaon the Warhammer World is no more. Mutually Assured Destruction has come to pass. And it doesn't appear there were (m)any winners. I'm looking forward to reading all this over the next few days - download tonight - but it appears it's not going to be pretty.
I'm a little bit shocked by what I am hearing. GW "appear" to be destroying 30+ years of fluff and accumulated story. Most companies would die in a ditch before they gave that asset up. So what's up here?
I can see two drivers. It appears GW was far more influenced by the Chapterhouse court case than I for one thought. There has been a visible response - mostly in 40k to date - to tie down their own IP and to remove anything "contestable" from the game. We've seen Space Marines become more visibly rebranded as Adeptus Astartes and there was some totally forgettable name change for what was Imperial Guard (As an aside I've never understood why people want to place a 20th century army in a futuristic space game - Flames of War is down the corridor, third door on the left).
To date the move to protect IP has been less evident in Fantasy. However the whispers have been growing for the past six months that the company wants to ensure that the game is less "Tolkeinesque" so that they can't be leeched on by competing companies making models for "their" game - Mantic, AoW, Warlord etc. This seems to me a rather dramatic response - like amputating an arm because you have tennis elbow - but you'd hope there is some analysis behind the benefits. We'll see.
The second driver spoken about was the high cost of entry versus 40k. I had personally thought this was Internet noise but the last two days have taken the wind out of my sails. And how. The fluff seems to be a tool to allow the whole Warhammer World to be be reset in much smaller terms.
I'm very apprehensive about this as the appeal of WHFB has been twofold - the fluff and massed ranked large scale armies. As it stands it seems both of those may be gone.
Interested in GWs next move from here.
Posted with Blogsy
It keeps on hitting me that everything ever written for WHFB lore no longer applies, all the Times of Legend books, all the Gotrex and Felix books, all the lore in every army book ever written, even the damn white dwarf no longer exists and all it took was on paragraph at the end of the final End Times book
ReplyDeleteGW better have a damm good setting for 9th otherwise they will lose badly on this
I can't see why they would need to destroy the world either. If they wanted to protect their IP and/or energise the storyline they could probably do that within the current setting; fast forward 200 years with a few medium sized wars to kill some characters and move borders. Now your Renaissance Germans can be made into their own culture with their own copyrightable look. Maybe the Space Paladins could have evolved in that time, maybe Sigmar becomes more powerful and takes a hand. It's a fantasy setting, they can bend it as they need to.
ReplyDeleteAs for the cost of entry, they can address that through the rules set (but not prices, we know that's not going to happen). If they wanted a smaller model count, then the rules will help determine that, just as it did in 4th and 5th Edition.
All in all, on the face of the available evidence (which is sketchy), I can't see why they'd want to destroy one of the best and most recognizable settings in fantasy. They will need to have something very special to replace it.
Fairly much the same response as you guys. Huge history destroyed in a tizzy fit like a toddler. The key point for alternate miniature companies leeching off Warhammer is entry cost. Destorying a background asset the envy of many business world wide seems, well.. massively moronic. I mean, for one, look at 40k.. folks were so interested in exploring the time the Emperor walked Terra, it has spawned a revivalist 30k period so active GWHQ may indeed be considering a 30K boxed set itself. I've been away from my hobby desk awhile, doing silly adventuring things, I was looking forward to settling down before my hobby desk and modelling out some ideas of the Warhammer world - and now, they just feel irrelevant. Its a dreadful feeling to have about a World one has grown quite fond of over 20yrs.
ReplyDeletePretty much like Star Trek, they couldnt think of anything new to write screenplays - so they just smashed it all down and added glittering lights. Upsetting old fans, and grabbing cash from a generation who suffer from the worst ADD in the history of mankind.
The thing that bothers me is there is no real out now. Either its a complete redo, because now everything is Gone. Or it will be the biggest cop out ever, "Oh its okay, you can still use your Empire Regiment, this world is reset Matrix style"
The only thing we can say at the moment is we have no idea what is coming next. We also have no real idea why this has been done that way it has.
ReplyDeleteLooking at how they have developed the additional rules in the End Times books. This kicked off with the dead taking a massive role in the world with the return of Nagash and the promotion of the End Times being about heroes, as reflected in the rules. Next up, the combining of Chaos armies to reflect what Archaon is doing in putting together a mass invasion, and the new rules and charts for running Chaos. Elves have always been intertwined with magic, big surprise there's a bigger, apocalyptic magic section. The combining of the elves, the Phoenix King resolution and the death of Elf gods reflects Black Library books over the last few years, but also has parallels with the reworking of 40k Eldar/Dark Eldar and them being 'allies'.
I haven't looked at Thanquol, so no comment on what that does, but the throwing out of army composition in Archaon fits perfectly with the End Times themes, everything is Chaos ergo there is no game organisation.
The End Times rules etc fit into their own thing without necessarily being a precursor to 9th edition. Fluff-wise, who knows? The two main influences on the creation of the Warhammer world still exist: the Old Ones and the Chaos Gods. Tael mentions a 'reboot' above, well, maybe the Old Ones will do this? Restart their experiment, put all their pieces in place again and tweak it a little, see where it ends up.
I have no idea, but for once I am actually interested in what GW is going to do because for once they really could go in any direction.
Certainly is interesting, for me, I am just processing the very idea of an end to a World that I'm quite fond of. In reading about the internet there seems to be an indication that 9th has a slight 'Warmachine' vibe to it skirmish wise. Any direction certainly, but this variant seems the stronger suggestion. Certainly aid entry cost into Warhammer.
DeleteMakes me wish I hadn't sold all my Warmachine stuff
ReplyDeleteThe good thing is that there are plenty of local gamers who'll help you get back in. I understand that Chris Otton and Sean Lincoln are local press gangers while Peter Williamson would be able to steer you towards current PN players
DeleteChris runs a regular gathering at the Kapiti Wargames club. They have run 2 journeymen (starter) leagues over the last year or so. I have resolutely resisted getting sucked in, but if I end up sitting with literally a room full of useless WHFB armies due to the changes and 9th ed when it comes it may be an option. Will be sad, after 30 years, if they kill the WH world as we know it. Saga also looks promising as an alternative. A strong group running locally for that too.
Deletehow can armies ever be useless? I still have a Fimir army that I love and play with? Send 'em to me, mate. I will take 'em.
Deletegood luck
J
ps: saga is fun if you make up rules for ice trolls and grendel, otherwise a bit weird imo (let's play historical games but w/out scenarios and make them even points battles because that's what historical games are about? say whaaaat?)
Good take on GWs drivers for change, Pete. I see them cutting away the dead wood (read: us) Make way for a horde of young and enthusiastic players with maybe less deep pockets, lessen cost for entry, create greater turnover (How many players in gaming have you not seen start and then disappear?) That is actually where the money lies. Quantity. Turnover. I would expect a quicker cycling of models through races in years to come. Smaller range. Produce IP that cannot be contested, and reduce the entry cost. They are not interested in my historical spend, just my future spend. Think they've taken a long hard look at Warmahorde's success and feel the pinch from generic competitors. GW HQ are no longer gamers. Just toy sellers. I believe most of the store operators are still avid gamers, but they have no say in what head office decides. A sad state of affairs. The bean-counters have won.
ReplyDeleteI agree about IP that cannot be as easily contested but think you are wrong everywhere else. The cheaper entry fee is a red herring and GW has historically done their own thing - the shop manager might 'looks at Warmahorde's success' but that's about as high a level as you will find. People who say 'the gaming industry' don't seem to know there isn't really one - just a bunch of freefalling companies doing their own thing imo. But too early to tell yet on the bean counters - they didn't just come out w/ uber plastic kits for short term successes
DeleteJ
What is the rest of your name "J"?
DeleteFluff wise I reckon GW management sat down for a FFG Chaos Gods game and loved destroying the world so much, they did!
ReplyDeleteThe_Real_Chris
Just did a quick experiment over on my blog, WHFB does not cost more to start than 40k, in fact a 40k 1000 point list costs significantly more than a 1k WHFB list
ReplyDeletehttp://thediceodyssey.blogspot.co.nz/2015/03/dispellig-myths-warhammer-costs-more.html
Only issue is 40k doesn't work off percantages, thus you can use any big new toy as long as you fulfill your 1 HQ 2 Troops, to use my vampire lord on dragon I need at least a 1400pt battle, 375 of that being skellingtons, or atleast 37 ghouls...
DeleteThat and the usual 40k game is now like 1500 or 1850, Fantasy on the other hand is around 2400..bit of difference :/..
Fascinating Pete.
ReplyDeletePost-Blurred Lines I'd expect GW to be very worried about Warhammer and the willingness of Middle Earth Enterprises and the Tolkein Estate to resort to legal action.
Paul G