I’ve been following a couple of threads on various forums about the quality of Games Workshop products – especially in comparison with some of their competitors.
Mid last year I purchased some Giant Rats from Reaper Minis and towards the end of the year some Mantic Werewolves (to use as Crypt Horrors). What struck me was the difference in material between these products and the plastic that Games Workshop uses.
Reading through the threads it seems that Games Workshop uses styrene for its plastic products. This compound appears to hold its detail much better allowing the sculptor more sophisticated designs. Pieces are bonded using plastic glue – polystyrene cement. In contrast, the material used by Privateer Press, Mantic and I believe Reaper is PVC-based. The vinyl component explains the bending, warping and depending on personal bias (I guess) lack of detail. Apparently, you should not use polystyrene cement to bond components.
Now when there are discussions of price little is ever mentioned around the quality of materials. Most discussion centres on the sculpts and poses where there is a natural bias towards what you like.
Now when there are discussions of price little is ever mentioned around the quality of materials. Most discussion centres on the sculpts and poses where there is a natural bias towards what you like.
For me though there can be no doubt about the quality of materials GW uses to make its models. It is light years ahead of what Privateer Press, Mantic and Reaper are using. Yes, you pay for that quality and that is an undoubted factor in your purchase decision. However it is important to be aware that you are not comparing apples with apples. Of all the Mantic kits I’ve seen, held, played against, the only one I would choose over GW if price was not an issue are their Zombies. And this is because GW is still trying to schill a kit from the early 90s which was gak even then.
When I look at it, I would rather pay the extra for the GW product than use kits made from the lower quality PVC-based compound. I’m lucky as I’m in a position to make that choice. However, generally the purchase price is only part of the overall cost. My time for prep and painting is worth a considerable percentage of the final “cost” of the model/unit.
In retrospect I think that similar attitudes were the reason for the veracity of the backlash against Finecast. GW purchasers had been used to receiving a quality product and instead the basic material was substandard. With the increasing shift to plastics over Finecast and metal this should become a dim dark memory.
Interested to hear thoughts from those of you that have used different companies and how you find their modelling raw materials.
In the past i bought GW dwarf slayers from Trade Me and last year i bought AOW Dwarf slayers, and i have to say the the AOW product was far superior. However metal and plastic aren't the same thing but i have compared AOW Dwarf slayers to GW Empire State Troops and once again the AOW product is just equal if not better.
ReplyDeleteMantic's material is terrible and borders on unusable. Reaper's new PVC is does not any conversion. So I completely agree that GW is better on a materials basis. It is also important to note that converting a kit is a huge part of the hobby and that the competing products strongly hinder that ability, as does metal. With a finite time to put into the hobby, quality card is a pretty strong argument for purchasing a product. The one thing stopping me is that giving GW *any* money, here or overseas, is still encouraging them to bend me over the counter to euphemise their corporate practices.
ReplyDeleteI don't see any quality difference in Mantic's hard plastic compared to GW plastic. And being used to working with resin from my FW army I don't have any issues in working with Mantic's plastic-resin/restic either.
ReplyDeleteTo put it simply, different materials just need different tools & techniques. Resin/restic use a sharp knife to clean model lines as opposed to filing or sanding and its no problem, and using a quality CA glue suited to the task- gap-filling, thin etc depending on the job your doing and you won't have any issues. Especially if you use a CA accelerator as well. And the ability to repose just with some hot water or a hairdryer is amazing!
Dave G
Glad you mentioned FW there. I have never seen a FW kit that didn't require any reshaping sanding and filling. And that's still okay as it's a hobby.
DeleteThat's why I've got a Storm Eagle sitting under my desk laughing at me, I haven't been able to motivate myself to spend the 8-10 hours its going to take to get everything straight & flush
DeleteDave G
LOL I am not allowed any FW till my Revenant Titan is assembled that my wife brought me ten years go Eeeep!
DeleteI think where you stated comparing apples with apples that's the most non biased I have ever heard you when talking about Mantic et al :) .
ReplyDeleteThe fact is the price is the only issue for me with GW's plastics. Oh there are some stylistic choices I could do without - the ever exaggerated proportions and poor texture designs for instance (there is no good reason to keep making triangular fur) but overall yes GW plastics are nice. They are not mind blowing though.
I buy Mantic for two reasons. One the price. Two the games. I play a lot of their games such as Dreadball and Deadzone. I play Kings of War too but I couldn't care less where the figures for those came from.
Now details. Style and theme aside I place the Mantic Undead and Elf plastics on par with GW core plastics (not the elites like Grave Guard and Phoenix Guard which GW does make better) but the Core troops I place on par together, I think Mantics look nicer but GW’s are easier to put together even in the same polystyrene plastic material.
The PVC products are another story. I hate them. You can get some really lovely fine detail which just doesn’t occur with plastic. The Mantic resin-plastics I have (and I have a LOT) do have very nicely sculpted details which is true scale and it is fine details. I think often people refer to GW as fine details when they just mean lots of sculpted stuff on it. They’re not the same thing. But. Mantic’s good details are always ruined by the mouldlines which ALWAYS go through the centre of detail. I mean always. Now they’re not alone with this Privateer Press plastics have the exact same issues (Convergence) as do several others and it is the shortcoming of the material. Another shortcoming is from what I gather the material must not be able to be pumped at a very high pressure as even the simplest sculpts tend to come in multiple pieces which means every piece has a mould line and the line will not always follow the same logic.
Saying all that you get used to it and clean up becomes pretty easy if still evil.
Now money no object I will always buy polystyrene plastic IF the sculpts are nice. But money is an issue and for the price of one new GW plastic set (~10figs) I can buy one Mantic Battleforce equivalent (~80 figs).
From years of collecting GW by going with alternate companies I almost doubled my model collection on the last 12 months so maybe I was better sticking with GW lol...
Now having said all that I am currently saving to get the Dwarf models ( I can hear the groans already).
Addendum: as I can't stomach retail pricing I did buy The Hobbit SBG plastics half price (making them cheaper than Warhammer) and the kits I got Grimhammers, Eagles and Elf Cavalry were light years ahead of what I expected really easy to put together great details and well proportioned.
DeleteI think resin needs to be used more often. The best models I have ever owned have been resin. Quality and durability is superior. Forge world resin is far from great (the end result is great, but what it takes to get there...) GW plastic doesnt really look that good in my opinion, not when you have an army of resin and metal models whose detail seems far better and crisper.
ReplyDeletePlastic can look good, but I personally get resin whenever I can. One reason I stopped buying GW models.
Before I started doing some detailed reading I hadn't realised how poorly regarded Privateer Press's models were. This applies to both their plastic - or restic, or whatever they term it - and their metals.
ReplyDeleteUp till now it had largely flown under my radar.
I'd be interested in what Charlie's thoughts are now he's started building and painting them. They get real crap press on a lot of forums
Yeah the close up's of Privateer Press' latest releases have made me wary I have enough restic junk without adding more substandard stuff.
ReplyDeleteI bought a bunch of the Reaper PVC models as they are so cheap for what you get that I couldn't resist. The material holds detail very well, but it is very hard to work with and is not entirely compatible with other plastic materials, meaning you need to be good with green stuff to convert them. And given that the models are mostly single pose, you generally want to do something to them to make sure you have a decent looking unit and not a 4th Ed Warhammer style single pose unit.
ReplyDeleteThat being said. I converted all my beasts of nurgle with green stuff from that line and was able to get 10 models for the price of one GW finecast Beast (which has similar mono-pose problems), which is just absurd value. I mostly like GW models (won't touch finecast though) and I especially like how nice they are to convert and put together, but with the prices beginning to really soar for infantry units, I'm wanting to look more and more at alternatives.
As for mantic, I haven't been impressed overall with the quality of the sculpts, or the materials and so, like most, would only really look at their zombies to replace GWs. But, if I were cash-strapped and just getting into the hobby, I would certainly consider using their models for a first army so I could learn to paint and play and not have the massive outlay that GW models now require. That or if I was putting together an army specifically for a tourney like NZTC/ETC and not expecting to use it all the time.