The scuttlebutt is that sometime in the next 20 months we’ll see 9th Edition hit our tables. Inevitably with that we will see various rule changes, some big, some not so big.
One rules change I would really like to see is a change that characterises the Ironblaster and Skullcannon as Warmachine with regard to all aspects of shotting. This may be as simple as an errata removing “Move & Fire” or a change in classification.
Over the past few years I have used both Ironblasters and Skullcannons and, more than anything, it is the ability to move and fire that makes them so effective. Both models have the opportunity to reposition themselves so that they can bypass any cover advantages (e.g. Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry or Monsters, Dragonbane Gem/Dragonhelm, Charmed Shield) that their opponent derives. Trigonometry increases this benefit as the enemy approaches.
Certainly I think the game would be better for it if this ability was taken away. The units would still be worth their points but some of the cream would be knocked off the top.
Interesting Pete,
ReplyDeleteI would like to see artillery scaled back in general in 9th especially anything at S10 D6 W’s that is laser guided like a cannon. The ability to pick characters out of units with a cannon doesn’t sit well also. Having put a steg on the table 6 games over the weekend and having removed it first turn 4 of those games due to one shot from a warmachine it wasn’t worth it. I’m not sure how you do it as I don’t see a return to guessing ranges, and I think D3 W’s might be too much but making the majority of monsters semi viable (and I’m not talking Daemon Princes etc. as not all monsters are create equal) would be a nice change.
If cannons remained laser guided as now, then D3 or D4 wounds would be a 'fix' that would work. I remember Dwavern cannons use to be D3 wounds. Catapults and the like would need the same attention if this happened. The general removal of D6 wound mechanic would be an improvement to the game IMO.
DeleteThat's super poor luck..cannon more likely to explode than kill a monster in 1 shot.
DeleteThe current chariot cannons are the issue not normal cannons. Immunity to traditional warmachine hunters, free pivots, movement, special rules to be better at shooting, chariot combat benefits, and cheap to bring.
My solution would to make them move and shoot like the steam tank...ie only 1 pivot before moving in a straight line forward. Now they are still good, but not impossible to hide from. Move or shoot seems a little harsh...but not a bad idea given the nature of the weapon + gives the elven Versions a leg up in comparison.
DeleteYou must remember that James is the unluckiest man in Warhammer. Please see his Twitter feed
Delete^this
DeleteI'm glad you guys are finally realising this that I am the unluckiest man in Warhammer :) through pure skill I manage to struggle through that adversity to the podium :) I'm hoping my new set of Black Sun dice with some more ginger pubes included will rectify that in time for Masters. Then the rest of you might as well not turn up as I am a dead cert for it.
DeleteMove or shoot for the cannon chariot/ main battle tanks is a good idea. They'd still be bloody good options and arguably underpointed, but the difference between points and worth would be less.
ReplyDeleteRegarding James' point, if cannons are reduced in killing power, what would the result be. More monsters, chariots and other high-value targets sure, but what will this do to the infantry? They're already nearly an endangered species, and while I understand that Warhammer is a fantasy game that needs larger-than-life models, it's also meant to be a mass wargame. Do we want Warhammer to devolve into a game based on a relative handful of monsters and monsterous inf/cav/beasts with chaff in support? Isn't that like Warmahordes?
I'd be happy to weaken war machines if monsters were nerfed compared to infantry. Losing Thunderstomp would be a good first step, it's a freebie handed out with 8th Edition anyway.
But once you get Bear Cavalry, all bets are off?
ReplyDeleteHey, I don't go on about Bear Cav, you seem more fixated on it than me (too many nights putting Simon up during tournaments perhaps?)
DeleteAnyway, Dwarves won't get Bear Cavalry. Their burly builds and long beards mean that they're already Bears. What they need is some Twink Cav......
Thanks. We're having a sensible conversation and you have to drag it down.
ReplyDeleteAt the moment the triangle is something like warmachines kill monsters, fast cav kill warmachines, monsters kill fast cav. So there are reasons to take all of them. chariot cannons break the triangle because they are immune to warmachine hunters. In addition they have signficant combat power and the move and shoot.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Tane, you can't weaken one leg of the triangle without seeing a change in the other legs, monster mash armies ruing riot.
I'd like to see the removal of stomps from all monsterous things. I'd also like to see units take morale tests when they lose 25% of their wounds rather than models. If elephants are the example they were not often killed but were often driven off by arrow fire.
I wouldn't change the D6 wound mechanic, as currently it's one of the only things keeping the 6 wound or heavily armoured monsters honest.
ReplyDeleteThe problem as mentioned earlier is more around the moving and shooting, and the combat fighting ability of the two new chariot cannons. Add in some good armour saves, and in the latter case ward plus ITP, and you remove the counters.
I would suggest instead that their should be some kind of drawback to utilising the move and shoot mechanic itself as currently it is a no brainer. Surely a bouncing, moving cannon is harder to fire and less safe?
Eg: If moving - roll an extra artillery dice pick the lowest from the two rolled. This increases the chances of a misfire and ties in with the risk/reward mechanic that defines warhammer fantasy at present.
I see no problem with move and shoot, but then the Ironblaster is pretty much an essential in an Ogre army and one of the few things to make WoC/Daemons monster mashes give pause... and since said monsters usually make regen or ward save, (or I roll a 1 to wound if they don't) then I think it evens out...
ReplyDeleteThe ability to pick out characters just encourages people to have UNITS to give a look out sir, rather than single characters on steroids with every toy in the book. Besides for most flying characters, 2+ ward for 1st wound takes care of round 1, after that they should be in combat (surely that is the point). Alternately, they can play in silly hammer where TLoS need not apply and that green mound is actually a hill that is infinitely high and block everything...
Skullcannons should lose the bonus ward save (some fluff about firing mechanics interfering) or just be banned outright for being broken and a FUGLY model to boot...
:-)