We are now six months into the Daemon book and it is possibly worth having a discussion.
I am considering the following constraint in PLC (2400 points):
Unless the Daemon of Chaos army is entirely marked Nurgle, Beasts of Nurgle are limited to a maximum of eight (8) models.
To me this isn't particularly heavy comp but knocks out the more extreme builds unless you limit yourself to a Nurgle-only force.
Thoughts?
EDIT:
Following on from discussion in comments perhaps the better restriction is:
"If Epidemius is in your list Beasts of Nurgle are restricted to a maximum of six (6)"
Help! Help! I'm being repressed.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree they are overpowered especially when you can combine them with a decent Special Character that stacks bonus upon bonus on them!
ReplyDeleteNo one rule they have is rediclious on its own or even with 2 or 3 more but when you have 13 specials rules that have no backdraw plus a very solid stat line coupled with a cheap costing they become a touch overpowered!
But 8 seems fair that gives you either 2 units of 4 or the net build of 2 units of 1 and 1 unit of 6.
Whereas 12 Demigryphs is reasonable?
DeleteLOl! Lovin' this thread... (Having succumbed to 12 Demigryfs on Thursday)
DeleteYeah that was a brutal affair by the looks of it. How many demi's you got in your empire list?
DeleteI have 6 plus the two forgeworld ones I'm working on at the moment. (Putting them on slightly smaller bases.) Have resisted the urge to get more.They made mince meat out of my Dwarf gunline, which only got one shot in in their first round. Dirty with a Capital D. I would say 4-6 either Demigryphs or Beasts is still reasonable. Any more and the fun element for the opponent goes out of the game completely. I would almost advocate for a cap of 4 of either. (I would also agree that it is Epi on the portaloo that does the damage in the Daemons list more than a tarpit line of beasts)
Deleteyea but Demigryph's are balanced for their points and have very few ways of being buffed in the same way as beasts...
Delete1+ ar save can be easily, plus demi's run when they lose combat unlike deamons.. I could always field a steam tank instead of 4... lol.
easily overcome....
DeleteWhat nonsense Hamish. Demigryphs are far easier to buff than virtually any other unit given Empire's access to all Battle Lores.
DeleteIndeed the most obvious is the Light magic deck which is full of buffs for Demis
to be honest i was intending on running W.Alter with A.lector and Light council but the points just aren't there to play with it all so it's just a basic lvl4 light plus supporting lvl 1 (most likely on metal or possibilty 1 on light).
DeleteI'm still playing with lists but i could see lvl4 light lvl4 heavens but id have to cut the arch elector...
I don't know. 13 of them seems like overkill, but 8 isn't ridiculous. Why not 9 or 10?
ReplyDeleteFrom twitter: I don't think a cap is needed, but I haven't faced *all* Sam's beasts. Imo, it is the combo of beasts with Epi that really hurts. Unless he is there, sure, they are hard to move, but they are only s4, so don't exactly hurt armoured things. They aren't *that* fast, and they aren't *that* easy to maneuver, b/c you want to run them 4 wide, which gives what, 160mm frontage?
ReplyDeleteNever run them 4 wide, too unwieldy, 2-3 frontage max to start off with. still get 3 supporting attacks each and you can reform when you win anyway.
ReplyDeleteConga-line, and you'll have an everlasting tar-pit
DeleteMore from twitter: If we want to comp things, I think WoC need it before DoC do. But I have no idea how to comp WoC to tone them down, nor whether it is needed at all. I'd lean towards it not being needed.
ReplyDelete(Also, are the 'grumbles' arising from anyone other than Hamish?)
lol... whats so bad about WoC? personally id rather fight them than skill cannons, beasts and epidemus...
DeleteMaybe u should play sam a few times vs 12 beasts,Epi, 2 skull cannons etc and then his WoC for comparisons.
For me, seeing multiple beast units across the table sits in the same "fun to play against" category as Bell + deep buses of slaves (as in "not"), however my personal preferences of what is "fun" to play against shouldnt be my primary concern for comp. Both are not broken, but when taken to the extreme they can be.
ReplyDeleteI think a cap on 8 is fine, however I would be tempted to put Epidurmus in the naughty corner alongside Thorek and the like. Thorek is usually banned because no-one likes giving Dwarf players anything + he encourages an Anti-hammer approach. Nurgle Spam + Epidurmus is the exact same thing...a drawn out anti-hammer grind-fest game that in no way enhances the hobby of anyone taking part in the game.
Just my thoughts,
Joel v
Maybe "If Epidemius, then no more than 8 beasts" would do?
ReplyDeleteI'm fine with them being comped if BOTWD not being allowed to be taken in whitelions.
ReplyDeleteReally? Cos I would have thought the stealth cheese part of the banner is stubborn dragons within 12 inches...
DeleteJoel v
Fortunately this is not a horse trading session. And Sam if you are having trouble vs. BOTWD then I'd suggest you rethink your tactics. Personally can't see how you can lose to it with your DoC list
ReplyDeleteThat'd be a great comp system through, every player gets add one comp restriction
DeleteSeriously have only played one game against high elves so far, they seem to be hiding at the other end of the table. In the end I don't really care too much, I'll just bring what I've signed up for.
DeleteSam, just ignore the banner unit and tie it up with random chaff and take off all their other toys... 15-5 win is still a win lol.
DeleteI think Epidemius is the problem, rather than the Beasts. I would red-card Epidemius, and leave Beasts uncapped at the moment. They are pretty nails and cheap as hell, but WS3, S4 is still sorta workable as an opponent. It's only when they become S5, T6 after a mere 14 Wounds inflicted that they become broken.
ReplyDeleteI've only played Epidemius the once, but the experience matched the theory; he's just too good for 200 points.
It might be that they need to be capped anyway, but I'd like a further 6-8 months of Epidemius-less Beasts to work out if this is needed.
So perhaps the actual restriction should be:
ReplyDelete"If Epidemius is in your list Beasts of Nurgle are restricted to a maximum of six (6)"
That then allows Sam to still field his "fluff choice" of 13 Beasts.
Thoughts?
I think if he's limited to 1 Skull Cannon and no Empidimus he can have his 13 beasts.
ReplyDeleteotherwise I think your other restrictions @ 6 or 8 (as above)sound good to me!
I think we have to be careful with this train of thought...Remember the aim of Pete-lite is to take the top off the hard lists...not ETC them to oblivian.
Deletewith 12 beasts, 2 cannons, minimum core and 4 plague drones there aint many points for BSB and a lvl4...still creates a snooze-fest of a list (honestly dont know why this is aimed for...go play dwarfs!)...but minus a few of the toys so not quite as point and click as it could be.
Joel v
Lvl4 is just a points sink, as Sam has found its 450-500 points that's to easy to take off especially vs anything with decent magic or posion.
DeleteHis current list is much more danagerous than anything he had running a GUO lvl4
Quoting self: Maybe "If Epidemius, then no more than 8 beasts" would do?
ReplyDelete6 seems stingy, especially if someone has Epi and wants to run pure Nurgle.
The issue with Epidemius isn't limited to Beasts though. They're just the most obvious choice to synergise with him.
ReplyDeleteS5/T5 Plaguebearer blocks, or S5/T6 drones aren't going to be easy to handle either. And while the name of the game is to impose difficulties on your opponent, that should be harder to do than simply putting a 200 point character on the table who can then hide anywhere, as he doesn't have to be in range to have an impact. Or even be on the table at all if you interpret the rules that way.
The benefits of Epidemius are simply not commensurate with his cost and his vulnerabilities. The speed at which those benefits accrue is a major part of the problem.
Let Sam have his 13 Beasts, I'd be happier to face them than to face 6 Beasts, 8 Drones and 50 Plaguebearers with Epidemius (with 2 Skullcannons).