There has been some chat this week on Twitter re the warmachine cap in
Pete Lite Comp. Currently warmachines are limited to four (with two O&G
chukkas counting as a single choice and the Steam Tank counting as a choice).
The question posed is would it be such a bad thing if the cap was
removed?
The armies it impacts most on are Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs and Empire.
Would we see a change in the makeup of those armies if the cap was
removed.
I believe that we would see an increase in warmachines and I think
that I would be comfortable in limiting only bolt throwers and their ilk to
being 3+. This would mean that there would continue to be a limit on cannons
(though Empire it seems are ok with three, if you include the Steam Tank - not
sure why they are ok).
There seems to be two schools developing. The one is that the game
is becoming Monster-hammer - and multi wound warmachines are a counter to this
- while the other is that Monsters are largely missing from the game.
I think that the truth (as always) is in the middle. However I do
think a Dwarf gunline or an Empire battery is a response to Monster-hammer and
if you think that is the best investment of points then should you be
restricted?
However I know Dwarf players and I'd confidently expect to face 6+
warmachines and 3+ scroll runes castled up in a corner looking for that 10-10
win.
What do people think? Should the warmachine cap be removed to be
replaced with "Only Bolt Throwers and Spear Chukkas can be 3+".
The point of Pete Lite has always been to be permissive. This is
becoming more so as we see more 8th Ed books. I expect a swathe of Lizard
restrictions may go if the book is rebalanced on release.
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ReplyDeleteI like the 0-4 cap.
ReplyDeleteMainly because its a blanket comp and no army is considered different and decreases arguments.
How ever if you actually isolate the warmachine problems as you said its only those three armies.
Inside them them issues are Cannons, hellblasters, Doom Divers and chaos dwarfs.
So why not just limit them
0-2 Cannon (Stank is a cannon)
0-2 Hell Blaster
0-2 Doom Divers
0-0 Chaos Dwarfs allowed at tournaments.
Fixed
Lol did the Chaos Dwarves touch you in bad places???
DeleteI think its a little easier than that.
Instead of 0-4:
You can duplicate any war machine
War machines that count as 2 for one count as 0.5 for purposes of duplication
I would add daemons of chaos Skull Cannons to that list and add they should be restricted to 0-1 like Ironblasters since they are the same thing only better!
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Skullcannons are anywhere near as good as an iron blaster.
DeleteI don't subscribe to the theory that you should be allowed duplicates of every Warmachine - if the intention is to knock the top of the worst lists.
Really? The skull cannon isn't anywhere as good as the Ironblaster?! Yes it is flaming but it's every bit as good as the fun blaster in all other ways and it's cheaper.
DeleteRubbish. Negated by a 5/10 point magic item and you don't get to reroll the second dice. Having used both, the skullcrusher isn't in the same league as the Ironblaster
DeleteHamish is just scared of them. never used a funblaster so don't know.
DeleteI like the 0-4 comp, my current dwarf list would not change at all if I was able to take more then 4, I really enjoy the one I'm using now with the double hammer blocks and double organ guns.
ReplyDeleteIf I took 6 warmachines, I would be crap out of luck to protect them with anything of respectable size and they would just die turn 2-3 and It wouldn't be anything close to a 10-10 tie.
And CD's with any more warmachine capability would just be ridunkulous
For Ironblasters vs Skullcannons.
ReplyDeleteIt doesnt really matter which one is better or worse they both should be limited 0-1.
Unless in a pool system.
And forgive my ignorance in the above comp.
Doom Divers and Hell Blasters are Rare - so self comping.
So the only comp needed is
0-2 Cannons (Stanks a Cannon)
0-1 Funblaster & Skillcannon
0-0 Chaos Dwarfs in tournaments
No, that might be what happens in a more restrictive comp system but restrictions for their own sake is not the basis of this system. Want to play a pool system then SCGT offers that.
DeleteThere has to be variation between armies and Daemons unlike Ogres, for instance, are much more susceptible to Magic (ref: Hellheart, Dispel Scroll, Feedback Scroll, Rune Maw).
Does DoC having two Skullcannons break the game? No. Personally I'd only use one as points are spent better elsewhere.
Does OKs having two Ironblasters break the game? A lot of people said yes last year, hence the restriction.
For me I'd prefer to go with no warmachine cap other than:
General Restriction:
No triple of the same warmachine except for Elven Bolt Throwers/O&G Spear Chukkas where you may take up to 4.
Specific Restrictions:
Ogres: Ironblaster 0-1
Chaos Dwarfs: Magma Cannon 0-1
Skaven: WLC 0-1
Again personally, I've dropped my single WLC as I believe there are better places to spend points. I may be proved wrong. Two WLCs would give potentially more certainty (the WLC's problem is variability) and therefore potentially remains a concern.
If you are looking to remove restrictions where possible
Delete"No triple of the same warmachine except for Elven Bolt Throwers/O&G Spear Chukkas where you may take up to 4"
I think its good general restriction.
As my suggestion has a level of bias (justified bias however)
For Specifics are standard and have been for the last year and there is no need to change them.
However not to put the Skullcannon in same Red zone as the Ironblaster I dont agree with.
Its quite clearly as good if not better. Yes is doesnt have rerolls But has alot of strengths in a ward save, WS, Healing, no weakness to flanks or rear etc where the Ironblaster miss out.
Im not saying the Ironblaster is weak because its not.
You say the Skullcannon doesnt break the daemon army, I think it does iv played with both 1 and 2 iron blasters many time and moving cannon platforms are broken irrelevant on the rest of the army.
Late to the party (probably too late...) but here's my thoughts.
ReplyDeleteIf there wasn't a cap, I would take 5 war machines with my Dwarves. With no magic, abysmal movement and mediocre combat, Dwarves need shooting to kill key elements of the enemy army, have some degree of board control and shape/attrit enemy units before combat. This might make for boring and one-dimensional play, but you use the cards you've been dealt. If I can't rely on magic, movement and combat to win, I need to use shooting, sad but true.
My take on the meta is that protection, speed and killiness levels have increased greatly, as exemplified by Monsterous Cav and the A-list monsters (Chimeras, Abombs, Daemon Princes). Some armies can cope with this, either through their own MC/monsters, through cheap tarpits or through magic. But some can't, and need war-machines to help with this.
I think allowing war machines to increase will help deal with the new tanks out there. This acts as a check on the MC/A-list monsters, and helps tone it down. It's like any eco-system. If the counters to an organism are suppressed, then that organism will increase, sometimes too far. People should be free to take Chimeras, Mournfangs and Phoenixes, but they should also be mindful that somewhere out there might be lurking a Helblaster or Grudge Thrower with their name on it.
Finally, I don't think war-machines reduce monsters as much as people think. There's a clear division between the A-list and B-list monsters. The former are normally protected by wards/regen, are fast and quite cheap for their points. The B-listers, like Giants, Cygors, Thundertusks and the like are unlikely to be be taken even if war-machines were suppressed further. Lack of protection to BS shooting, poison or simple mass attacks as well as relatively high points cost normally rule them out anyway.
So, in short, no limit on war machines please. Yes, I'm biased, but you did ask for my opinion......
Cheers,
Tane
You are allowed to be late Tane, you have very short legs.
Delete