I love my Dwarfs, and yes I do agree that it feels like we are on the back foot a lot of the time competitively but never to a large extent. And yes we don't have much variety in our lists and they tend to look the same, however, you could say the same thing About Ogre's, O&G's, and etc. Each army usually has one 'Meta' list that EVERYONE and their dog plays and if anyone else tries anything majorly different, their basically punching themselves in the nads.
The Dwarfs by far have the best lore in the game, their models are good but better exist however. I play Dwarfs consistently because, well, I enjoy playing them, they're a fun army to play in my opinion and I couldn't give a crap about what anyone says about them, moan away, but it's my army and I enjoy playing them, so whatever your stance, you'll always see a Dwarf army at a NZ tournament if I have anything to do about! *HOORAY!*
I do wish our book had a bit more variety out there, maybe some more 'interesting' warmachines, monsters and cavalry, but we don't, so that's just how it is. What will most likely happen however when the new book comes 'oot' (Whenever that may be) GW will give us a magic phase, which will destroy the major uniqueness the Dwarfs had and will be slap in the face of all Dwarf players but they will, so whatever. We'll most likely get out treasure trove of Runic items taken away and only have a handful and the rest will be generic magic items from the rulebook, again, a slap in the face but it's going to happen. We'll get a big ass monster that will cost a bundle of points and some cavalry (hopefully bears, yes I said it AGAIN!). After that our book will be like everyone else's to that extent and GW would have robbed us of the uniqueness of the army. (yes the Dwarfs are unique, an army that doesn't move nor has magic and instead has runic items and cool expensive warmachines... i.e UNIQUE!)
No variety in the Orc book!!! Have you read it?? Soo many options its not funny. Yes Savage Big unz and doom divers are in all lists, but everything else is player choice.
By the way, this a new model I am getting for my WOC..Just to rub it in :)
Sure there is variety, but no one chooses to use that variety. It's all about the Savage Orc Big Uns, Troll, the 1 unit of gobbos then some WM plus some chaff!
And that model is friggen awesome. However it's missing a key feature... Oh right, the Dwarf riding it!
The post on Hoodling's Hole is excellent, and I also agree with pretty much everything written.
Dwarves suffer from an outdated and overly-limited army design. In short, no magic + poor movement + mediocre combat = massive over-reliance on shooting.
The problem with this is that shooting is passive and the least effective phase of the game. You can't shoot into combat, so you're forced to sit still for the first 3 turns or so to make sure your shooting can shape your opponent, reducing key enemy units to manageable sizes/chopped meat/red mist. Which is boring for both players and frustrating for your opponent as their prize toys get blasted. Or it doesn't work, and your opponent's big stuff hits the Dwarf line relatively unscathed and smashes it.
Static, expensive and squishy war-machines also force a static stance, by requiring protection against hunters, while expensive and slow Dwarves make counter-chaff fairly useless. Try and have a M3 Dragonslayer chase a unit of Harpies or Skinks.
The mediocre combat power of Dwarves is such that if you do try to mix it up with a combat army, you're going to get smashed by many other armies who just do this phase so much better.
If Dwarves are to get better as an army, we need improvement in all phases, and a reduction in shooting and probably anti-magic. Dwarves should be hard-arse combat troops, capable of fighting and beating damn near everyone else on a point-for-point basis, with shooting in support (and maybe some magic type effects to help focus combat power on key points of the table).
Until then, I'm sad to say that Dwarf players will focus on the strengths of our book, the same way everyone else focuses on the strengths of theirs. Which means our opponents will continue to hear a lot of "Ready, Aim, FIRE!"
Dont agree with about the weak combat phase Tane. 8th Ed rule changes particularly step up make Dwarfs very strong in close combat phase. The reasons shooting dominated in 7th was because once we got charged the game was over as we could never hit back. So you relied on shooting to whittle the enemy down before they hit you. The other rule changes that helped were the removal of table quarters meaning no more 25pt enemy units being the diff between 20-0 and 12-8.
Now I see combat as our best phase and honestly 10-10 is no longer the best option. You only have to look at the fantastic results Simons been getting since he hit the tournament scene to see what you can do with Dwarfs. Would I like more toys yes... will I keep playing them if they dont change yes...
Dude, I'm not moaning. I was giving a realistic appraisal of the army, which includes agreeing with the current trendy meme about why Dwarves are hobby-killers. I'm not whinging about power levels or how we don't have cool toys. I'd just like to see a balanced army that competes in more than one phase, and I'm sure you do too.
As for the Dark Side, I'll be there, but I paint with the speed of a drugged sloth. My non-Dwarf painted figures total 8 High Elf spears. They're rather nice, but not enough to enter a tournament with. That will change over (a lot of) time, but until then, I'm rolling with my stunties due to the painted-armies only condition at most tournaments (which I strongly agree with).
The only phase we dont realistically compete in is movement. Depending on how tournaments are comp'd we can kill any armies magic phase, our shooting is better than most at S4 base from well armoured T4 models. Warmachines are great especially with the new rules about no guess ranges. Close combat is also stronger.
Its the absence of chaff and fast units that make a big difference for us, but then we have the Gyrocopter...
Dwarfs rule... and other ppls grumbling is always fun to listen to
Tane, wasn't saying you were whining at all. It's other plays who don't play dwarf armies at all. Your points were extreamly valid and right on the spot by all means :D, I agree with them totally!
It was really just one of my smart ass remarks to Sam lol.
The main issue with Dwarfs is the Movement. Even if you want to build a combat army you simply cant move across the board fast enough to do it effectively or stand a chance of having any control in the movement phase (where most of combat is won anyway). To counter this you must force your opponent to come to you and thats where the shooting comes in, by blasting them to high heaven they have to engage you simply to reduce their models leaving the board. So a combat dwarf army must have guns and lots of them anywawy.
Dwarfs only attack move is a counter attack so at the end of the day it is completely up to your opponent to 'want' to engage. (High risk anvil play is a bad alternative I guess)
I played Dwarfs in my opinion very successfully for the best part of 2011/2012 and my conclusion to the 'dwarfs are boring' argument is they are no more frustrating to play against or with than any other army the only difference is you have to learn to accept M3 (which is the dwarf player choice not yours) and if you wish to complain about the Non-event of a game 'TRY RUNNING at the dwarf player' he only has one unit on the board that can do anything and thats his Hammerer block everything else will die its crap.
Also I complete agree with most of the comments going round here. Dwarfs have fantastic, rich Character and fluffy behind them. WAY more so than 80% of the other armies - so can you blame anyone for wanting to play the Stunties!!! Like all of our warhammer woes this is GW's crap! And fault in complete lack on consistency in anything they do. How hard is it write write in a couple of new units into a white dwarf as a supplement. Its not that have havent done it before with sooooo many other armies. HEll they wrote a whole Warriors book in a white dwarf at one stage in 7th ed.
Anyway I think you should all be supporting the Dwarf players out there. They are a dying bread and in my opinion playing one of the coolest if not best Fluffy army in the game. I would way rather play against a Dwarf army than some of the other 'jokes' for armies that are hitting the board at the moment.
Dear Thomas, if we ever meet in a pub after a warhammer tournament I'll shout you a pint and a feed. Plus, a pint for the rest of the other dwarf players (not a feed though). If anything we dwarf players stick together, good on ya.
"Shed blood with me! Shed blood with me and be my brother, for alone we are rocks, but together we the sons of Grungni are a mountain"
I am not going to say any more here than that I agree with the above comments made by actual and sensible dwarf players, especially the fact that the lack of real movement is our main shortcoming which is adequately overcome with our improved combat abilities in 8th and impressive shooting.
Let other players grumble, let them moan, if they don't want to play against dwarfs then they are always welcome to play with a dwarf army of their own.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGood read, valid points.
ReplyDeleteI love my Dwarfs, and yes I do agree that it feels like we are on the back foot a lot of the time competitively but never to a large extent. And yes we don't have much variety in our lists and they tend to look the same, however, you could say the same thing About Ogre's, O&G's, and etc. Each army usually has one 'Meta' list that EVERYONE and their dog plays and if anyone else tries anything majorly different, their basically punching themselves in the nads.
The Dwarfs by far have the best lore in the game, their models are good but better exist however. I play Dwarfs consistently because, well, I enjoy playing them, they're a fun army to play in my opinion and I couldn't give a crap about what anyone says about them, moan away, but it's my army and I enjoy playing them, so whatever your stance, you'll always see a Dwarf army at a NZ tournament if I have anything to do about! *HOORAY!*
I do wish our book had a bit more variety out there, maybe some more 'interesting' warmachines, monsters and cavalry, but we don't, so that's just how it is. What will most likely happen however when the new book comes 'oot' (Whenever that may be) GW will give us a magic phase, which will destroy the major uniqueness the Dwarfs had and will be slap in the face of all Dwarf players but they will, so whatever. We'll most likely get out treasure trove of Runic items taken away and only have a handful and the rest will be generic magic items from the rulebook, again, a slap in the face but it's going to happen. We'll get a big ass monster that will cost a bundle of points and some cavalry (hopefully bears, yes I said it AGAIN!). After that our book will be like everyone else's to that extent and GW would have robbed us of the uniqueness of the army. (yes the Dwarfs are unique, an army that doesn't move nor has magic and instead has runic items and cool expensive warmachines... i.e UNIQUE!)
No variety in the Orc book!!! Have you read it?? Soo many options its not funny. Yes Savage Big unz and doom divers are in all lists, but everything else is player choice.
DeleteBy the way, this a new model I am getting for my WOC..Just to rub it in :)
http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_fmr_blr_wld_101_000
Sure there is variety, but no one chooses to use that variety. It's all about the Savage Orc Big Uns, Troll, the 1 unit of gobbos then some WM plus some chaff!
DeleteAnd that model is friggen awesome. However it's missing a key feature... Oh right, the Dwarf riding it!
I came third with a NG list at Arch Enemy.
DeleteThe post on Hoodling's Hole is excellent, and I also agree with pretty much everything written.
ReplyDeleteDwarves suffer from an outdated and overly-limited army design. In short, no magic + poor movement + mediocre combat = massive over-reliance on shooting.
The problem with this is that shooting is passive and the least effective phase of the game. You can't shoot into combat, so you're forced to sit still for the first 3 turns or so to make sure your shooting can shape your opponent, reducing key enemy units to manageable sizes/chopped meat/red mist. Which is boring for both players and frustrating for your opponent as their prize toys get blasted. Or it doesn't work, and your opponent's big stuff hits the Dwarf line relatively unscathed and smashes it.
Static, expensive and squishy war-machines also force a static stance, by requiring protection against hunters, while expensive and slow Dwarves make counter-chaff fairly useless. Try and have a M3 Dragonslayer chase a unit of Harpies or Skinks.
The mediocre combat power of Dwarves is such that if you do try to mix it up with a combat army, you're going to get smashed by many other armies who just do this phase so much better.
If Dwarves are to get better as an army, we need improvement in all phases, and a reduction in shooting and probably anti-magic. Dwarves should be hard-arse combat troops, capable of fighting and beating damn near everyone else on a point-for-point basis, with shooting in support (and maybe some magic type effects to help focus combat power on key points of the table).
Until then, I'm sad to say that Dwarf players will focus on the strengths of our book, the same way everyone else focuses on the strengths of theirs. Which means our opponents will continue to hear a lot of "Ready, Aim, FIRE!"
Dont agree with about the weak combat phase Tane. 8th Ed rule changes particularly step up make Dwarfs very strong in close combat phase. The reasons shooting dominated in 7th was because once we got charged the game was over as we could never hit back. So you relied on shooting to whittle the enemy down before they hit you. The other rule changes that helped were the removal of table quarters meaning no more 25pt enemy units being the diff between 20-0 and 12-8.
DeleteNow I see combat as our best phase and honestly 10-10 is no longer the best option. You only have to look at the fantastic results Simons been getting since he hit the tournament scene to see what you can do with Dwarfs. Would I like more toys yes... will I keep playing them if they dont change yes...
I am so over Dwarfs moaning about their army. Why not come to the "Dark side" and play something else.
ReplyDeleteI'm so over people moaning about our army. All this whining about not moving and their precious models being taken off turn 1.
DeleteDude, I'm not moaning. I was giving a realistic appraisal of the army, which includes agreeing with the current trendy meme about why Dwarves are hobby-killers. I'm not whinging about power levels or how we don't have cool toys. I'd just like to see a balanced army that competes in more than one phase, and I'm sure you do too.
DeleteAs for the Dark Side, I'll be there, but I paint with the speed of a drugged sloth. My non-Dwarf painted figures total 8 High Elf spears. They're rather nice, but not enough to enter a tournament with. That will change over (a lot of) time, but until then, I'm rolling with my stunties due to the painted-armies only condition at most tournaments (which I strongly agree with).
The only phase we dont realistically compete in is movement. Depending on how tournaments are comp'd we can kill any armies magic phase, our shooting is better than most at S4 base from well armoured T4 models. Warmachines are great especially with the new rules about no guess ranges. Close combat is also stronger.
DeleteIts the absence of chaff and fast units that make a big difference for us, but then we have the Gyrocopter...
Dwarfs rule... and other ppls grumbling is always fun to listen to
Tane, wasn't saying you were whining at all. It's other plays who don't play dwarf armies at all. Your points were extreamly valid and right on the spot by all means :D, I agree with them totally!
DeleteIt was really just one of my smart ass remarks to Sam lol.
Hi Simon. Sorry for the confusion, but the comment was a reply to Sam. It appeared after your name because I seem to have put it in the wrong place.
DeleteThe main issue with Dwarfs is the Movement.
ReplyDeleteEven if you want to build a combat army you simply cant move across the board fast enough to do it effectively or stand a chance of having any control in the movement phase (where most of combat is won anyway).
To counter this you must force your opponent to come to you and thats where the shooting comes in, by blasting them to high heaven they have to engage you simply to reduce their models leaving the board.
So a combat dwarf army must have guns and lots of them anywawy.
Dwarfs only attack move is a counter attack so at the end of the day it is completely up to your opponent to 'want' to engage.
(High risk anvil play is a bad alternative I guess)
I played Dwarfs in my opinion very successfully for the best part of 2011/2012 and my conclusion to the 'dwarfs are boring' argument is they are no more frustrating to play against or with than any other army the only difference is you have to learn to accept M3 (which is the dwarf player choice not yours) and if you wish to complain about the Non-event of a game 'TRY RUNNING at the dwarf player' he only has one unit on the board that can do anything and thats his Hammerer block everything else will die its crap.
Also I complete agree with most of the comments going round here.
Dwarfs have fantastic, rich Character and fluffy behind them.
WAY more so than 80% of the other armies - so can you blame anyone for wanting to play the Stunties!!!
Like all of our warhammer woes this is GW's crap! And fault in complete lack on consistency in anything they do.
How hard is it write write in a couple of new units into a white dwarf as a supplement. Its not that have havent done it before with sooooo many other armies. HEll they wrote a whole Warriors book in a white dwarf at one stage in 7th ed.
Anyway I think you should all be supporting the Dwarf players out there.
They are a dying bread and in my opinion playing one of the coolest if not best Fluffy army in the game.
I would way rather play against a Dwarf army than some of the other 'jokes' for armies that are hitting the board at the moment.
Dear Thomas, if we ever meet in a pub after a warhammer tournament I'll shout you a pint and a feed. Plus, a pint for the rest of the other dwarf players (not a feed though). If anything we dwarf players stick together, good on ya.
ReplyDelete"Shed blood with me! Shed blood with me and be my brother, for alone we are rocks, but together we the sons of Grungni are a mountain"
I am not going to say any more here than that I agree with the above comments made by actual and sensible dwarf players, especially the fact that the lack of real movement is our main shortcoming which is adequately overcome with our improved combat abilities in 8th and impressive shooting.
Let other players grumble, let them moan, if they don't want to play against dwarfs then they are always welcome to play with a dwarf army of their own.
- Adam Richards