The more I read the new Warriors of Chaos, the more I think that the designer has done a good job.
Generally the two biggest complaints from army owners is the repricing of Marauders - especially the pay per model for Mark of Khorne - and the changes to Skullcrushers. In both cases I think the changes were warranted - 50+ units of Khorne Marauders with Flails were too cheap - and the Skullcrushers were the best Monstrous Cavalry in the game. The repointing of the Skullcrushers hasn't been all one way - the extra wound and changes to Jugger offset by the reduction in T fully justify the 78 point cost.
So what do I like about the book?
First and foremost, the variety. Only the Orc & Goblin book has more unit choices. This means that there is an incredible opportunity to build lists, look for different synergies etc.
Following on from this, there is now competition in all slots. For example the Lord slot has three contenders with the elevation of the Daemon Prince. The Troops slot has variety too. Now you can have vanguarding Dogs, Marauder spam, Core Chariots as well as the mainstay with infantry. Initially I though Chariots were the new black, now I'm leaning to a more combined arms approach. However what you take has to fit with the rest of your list. So I think this will mean more variety.
The Special slot again creates conundrums - Knights, Dragon Ogres, Chimeras, Chosen (with or without Warshrine). There are a lot of choices to make and opportunities (read builds) to explore. Even the Rare slot is busy. I like Hellcannons but can I fit them and Skullcrushers in? What about the Shaggoth - increase in stats and 50 point decrease?
Real real variety.
I haven't even begun to scratch the surface in regards to Lores but Nurgle in particular with its buffs and damage spells looks a good Lore and even if you mark your users you now have access to a battle college lore.
If I was a WoC general I wouldn't be moaning. Instead I'd be rejoicing at what a great and varied book GW have delivered. Yeah, sure it's different but all books are. Look at the longevity you have in comparison to say the variety in the Ogre book (ref NZTC lists). Here you have a multitude of viable alternatives rather than predominantly one single build.
couldnt agree more. the good changes far outweighs the bad. and the 'bad' changes were fair enough.
ReplyDeletegood thing i only bought two boxes of crushers.
my only concern is faq'ing the chimera regen to 5-6+
I'm pretty happy with it and i can see me building yet another army.Was pissed and the massive increase on Mauarders,but i can live with it..
ReplyDeleteI'm feeling somewhat enthused again about warhammer or at least the converting/painting side of warhammer.Really hope the new Daemon list has alot of new cross over figs too.
I'm not a WoC player, but by and large I'm happy with the new book. I think they might have gone slightly too far with the Marauders - they feel 1 point too expensive to me now - but they're still closer to right than they were.
ReplyDeleteThe book is filled with viable options now, and we will hopefully see more variety in WoC armies than we did before.
The only thing I was really disappointed by was Tzeentch still getting 3+ ward saves (and rerolls of 1s to boot!) It was frustrating before and it remains so. I don't know why they left that in.
And yeah, who is going to buy a Chimera without regeneration? Seriously, I agree with Ben W above. Either the price is wrong, or it's not meant to be a 4+...
Still, if that's all I really care to complain about, the book seems like a success to me.
Variety is the Spice of Chaos. I agree with marauders being 1 point too expensive, Now you will see no armies with marauders. I ran 2 games with pure Nurgle and it's tougher than Dorfs.
DeleteNot as boring though, I bet
DeleteI could build a quasy dwarf list, 3 blocks of Chaos Warriors of Nurgle with great weapons, 1 Block of Chosen Nurgle, 2 hellcannons.
DeleteNeed Moar Cannons.
/Yawn
not really... Those blocks of Warriors are not Stubborn. Big difference!
DeleteIts interesting to see everyone being so positive!
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with the fact that WoC now have move variety in their book (which was needed) I do feel the book overall has had a significant downgrade in power level when you compare its old book and other 8th ed armies!
First things first: the new books art look amazing and overall I like the feel of it in hardback, referencing could have been better!
Characters – Deamon Prince seems viable but extremely expensive, I do like the changes Ive seen so far….
As for our other Lords and Hero’s their still way overpriced! Dropping the lord levels by 20-50 points would have gone a long way to helping!
Core:
WoC overall experienced an increase in points, in smaller units they are marginally cheaper but to be honest if you’ve played WoC at all you should have found that small units are just bad. I have 1 word for you - Steadfast…. Nuf said!
Marauders – They went overboard on repricing, I can’t see these ever being taken now in any significant numbers.
Forsaken – I hoped these would see a new semi decent core unit added but at 19 points each they will never see play! Consider: you get an unmarked WoC for 14 points or with an additional hand weapon and MoK for 17 points you get a model with a reliable 4str 4 attacks.
Maruader Horsemen – yea GW barely touched them except for the horselord rerolls! No majors here.
Chaos Warhounds – I like the point’s reductions on upgrades and the added vanguard but it’s a real shame they still can panic units… really, why?
SKullcrushers - I will reserve my opinion until I play them in their new format…
Slaughter Brute /Vortex Beast – I personally think their a waste of points but if you like fluff then their ok and the model isn’t bad either. slaughter brute needed more attacks (2x D6)or some form of ward/regen save.
Dragon Orges – Love the models but overall their still relatively weak... the points reduction was nice but it’s a shame they couldn’t increase their armour save or initive or alternatively give them impact hits similar to Orge Kingdoms.
Shaggoth – is still a terrible monster, it needed to be toughness 6 minimum and a change of special rules! It’s a shame I was hoping they’d be our Hydra/A.bomb or at least semi-playable at a competitive event!
Chosen - still overpriced for what you get, the extra dice or 2 (with combo) is nice but still the lose of the 4+ ward hurt them A LOT this might spell the end of these in competitive unless you really really want a free Demon Prince from your champion but given the EotG is a boundspell good luck with that!
Magic - Tzeentch magic = Tragic... the warpfire rule was unnecessary and the lore has been significantly downgraded in power level across the board… Gleam magic is nice but why drop Pandemonium (especially since Infernal Puppet is gone), Call to Glory and Treachery of Tzeentch: that’s basically a swift kick to the preverbal for this lore… especially when you account for the changes in Gateway. Now I agree “Gateway” needed fixing but its not bad, it should have been 18-20 to cast and remained the same (sucking a unit away was about on a 11-12 was about 8.34%)…..now we have no spell on a power level even close to those of dreaded 13, Death Vortex, Foot of Gork, Pit of Shadows, transmogrification (turn them to gold thing) etc like other lores….
Magic items - in general all got worse, I’m unsure why items like “Chaos Runesword” and the “Axe of Khorne” got removed... among others but I won’t go there!
Overall I personally rate the changes I’ve seen and experienced as 5/10... WoC in its old incarnation was a solid choice for events I’m not so sure now…
All I have to say is LOOK OUT DEAMONS IN MARCH, you will all feel my pain soon!! *I can only hope* lol
Channeling your inner bitter Dwarf . . . tick
DeleteThat is the general vibe I get from Hamish posts..however he could just be incredibly insightful
DeleteFailed to mention how good Slaanesh and Nurgle are.;-)
DeleteDidn't get past not being Gateway people of pitch anymore, needs to use some skill is list building and in game tactics so toys have left the cot and louding squealling sword shall be heard.
DeleteHopefully, Unlike Pete and CSM Codex, he recover.
Personally I am looking forward to Daemons in March, it would be good to see more variety in the army book, especially in the special and rare categories.
DeleteThat way maybe we can get away from the 3 blood letter horde army lists that currently rule the roost
Yeah, about those 3 Bloodletter Hordes... Rumours are Apparently they might get Hatred as a base ability and frenzy if accompanied by a Herald. A points increase for letters as well. The locus for each of the other heralds may change.
Delete...and yeah I'm one of those bastards taking a 3 letter horde for my first tournament in 10 years. I would have taken a fluffier choice and gone with a Greater Daemon, but he just didn't add as much redundancy as 3 letter hordes. Playing against heavy preponderance of cheap artillery and bowfire where you lose a GD in one shot is not nice.
Facing 3 letter blocks "is not nice" either.
DeleteAnonymous I don't mind you expressing an opinion, telling me I'm wrong or even having a go but at least have the decency to put up ur real name! You realise any WoC army that relies on gateway to win is laughable and will get tabled 9/10 times especially when you consider you have a whooping 8.34% chance of removing an enemy unit entirely! Gateway's best used for targeting small expensive units and whittling them down, things like Iron blasters, Black Knights, Dragon Princes or Demigryphs over several turns assuming you're not blocked!
DeleteThe only army I know of that has the luxury of removing unit after unit with one spell is Skaven and that's assuming they throw 6 dice and a warp token at the "dreaded 13" each turn!
Anyway back to the new WoC - I'm not saying WoC they aren't playable but the book right now excluding magic (for casting) seems like a downgrade. Infernal Puppet, Gateway , Maruaders etc all needed changing but so did a number of other items to make them even "semi-playable" but games workshop dropped the ball (in my eyes). I'll still play my WoC in some incarnation but they missed out on a big opportunity to sell me and a significant amount of other WoC players $300- $500 of new models.
I was hoping things like Forsaken might be playable but at 19 points you can play them but their points are WAY over costed, Slaughterbrute seemed cool but again his limited attacks make him an unlikely choice.
I'm not an advocate of making every unit busted but I am an advocate of making every unit at least semi playable from a competitive stand point. I've already got 2 -3 new WoC list prepared so hopefully after some extensive testing I can find a combination I'm as happy with as I am my current list!
Lvl4 Disc lord - 1+ AS / 3+ Ward
Exalted 2+ AS / 4+ Ward
Sorcerer lvl2 4+ AS
25 Tzeentch WoC Full command
9 Chaos Knights, banner of rage - MoT, Banner/musician
4 Skullcrushers - musican
5 Skullcrushers - musican
2 units of 5 Maruader Horsemen Mark of Slannesh.
I need to try the magic out more before I reserve final judgement on it! :)
DeleteI suspect my new army list will look something like this:
ReplyDeleteDisc Sorcerer Lord or Demon Prince - Nurgle/ lots of toys
Standard exalted on Barded Chaos Steed or juggernaut (palaquin could be an option but you can be sniped!)
Large WoC unit - MoN, FC, Shields
2 Chariots (normal not Gore Beast)
8 Knights
5 Skullcrushers
Hellcannon
some Warhounds or Maruader Horsemen.
If that doesnt work then Trolls + xtra hand weapons! :)
Wasn't the fussed with the new book until i sat down and had a proper read.
ReplyDeleteI'm off the opinion that everything in the new book is usable and they got the pts about right.
Seen a shit load of moaning about Mauarders not being any good and being to pricy,but really if the meta game in your area is seeing a lot off metal magic then these guys are still the boom.I do think they are to pricy ,by around a 1pt but there not going to be kicked out of my list in a hurry with all the lizardman,HE and empire players taking metal at the moment.
Well I just struggled thru an 18 page thread on WargamerAU on why some gamer is quitting Fantasy due to the release of the WoC.
ReplyDeleteApparently he had won the local tournament at the wattalottaroosdung war games club with his Warriors and now destined never to reach those heights again all the fun and enjoyment had been sucked out of his hobby.
I searched for intelligent life but found very little evidence
Why would you bother?
DeleteAnyone starting a thread like that leaves Warhammer better off with him/her leaving. It is a bit like what Muldoon (former MAGS boy) said about Kiwis going to Oz.
You'd be better off spending your time and interweb bandwidth trolling and sledging re the NZTC which is presently too quiet. Whats with Von Trap? It should be Dunn and Dunner!
Cheers
Ant
Here here!
DeleteLet the sledging begin!
Greenpeace have sent an offical notication of protest to Team O.M.E.N. setting out their concerns that Team O.M.E.N. will be engaging in "unncessary" seal clubbing akin to "slaughter" at the NZTC.
Team O.M.E.N. have responded to Greenpeace advising them that it is not our fault that the other teams have decided to dress as fluff bunnies and deserve every bit of clubbing they get.
Joel v
My Dwarves look forward to clubbing a few of you back. And shooting the bejeezus out of you besides. Silly chicken-riding manlings and your feeble excuses for cannons.
DeleteAnd if you whine about 'boring hobby killing', I do believe they'll laugh.
Tane your list is the very definition of "anti-hammer"...I love it! haha
DeleteWell, it's a team competition, so you play to your army's strengths for the sake of your team. Which in my case is max shooting with minimum movement and a bit of GW goodness in the combat phase should anything make it through the barrage and bolts.
DeleteApparently some of the British troops made it to the German trenches on the first day of the Somme battle, through the massed machine guns and quick-firing artillery. Maybe some of my opponents might do the same.
They're back to how I played them in 6th, 7th took them to a weird place I didn't like, very very excited. I'm pouring money into GW as fast as I can, but the 7k points of mortals I had before I bought a Daemon mean I'm most of the way there already! Wooo!
ReplyDelete