Since the pack was first written three books (Vampires, Empire, Warriors) and two updates (Warriors and Daemons) have been released. Also there have been clarifications in official GW FAQs that have impacted.
Local competitions have seen diversity in the races brought to tournaments (e.g. 11 races out of 12 participants at the Masters) and a diversity of races filling out Top 10 positions. So we have not been plagued by a lack of variety.
The pack in its current form is no longer being supported, having been replaced with a new pack based on a "pool" system.
Having previously canvassed locals, I know there is strong support for a system that is:
- Concise and easily understood
- Largely permissive so that they can bring their toys
- Aimed at restricting particularly egregious selection rather than balancing all choices.
With this in mind, Jack, Tom and myself had a discussion as to what updates were required to continue to use the system if desired. We were mindful of the bullets above.
Here are our suggested tracked changes (either Strikethrough or in RED). Love to get people's thoughts on them and whether they are necessary and whether we have missed and that are required.
As the Warriors of Chaos book is further dissected and tabletop experience is gained (rather than the current Theoryhammer than changes may be necessary. Until then we believe they should be uncomped.
The Winds of Magic rules we are currently using remain in force e.g. 12 PD Max, 6 dice per spell, +2PD
LIST RESTRICTIONS
Non warmachine shooting is
limited to 90 shots per army - count the number of shots, not models. So for
example Dark Elf Warriors with repeater crossbows count as 2 shots.
Ranked (non-skirmisher)
infantry with missile weapons with a range of 12" or less are excluded
from this restriction.
An army may not include
more than 2 warmachines of the same type and no more than 5 in an army.
No single non character
unit in the army may be over 450 points
The magic item “Fozzrik’s
Folding Fortress” may not be taken.
Race Specific Restrictions:
Lizardmen
- Salamanders 0 – 3 models per army.
- Higher State of Consciousness and the Crown of Command may not be taken on the same model.
- Skink Cohorts are 0 – 3 units per army. Cohorts containing Kroxigor do not count towards the cap.
- Skink Skirmishers are 0-3 units per army.
- Only two of the following may be taken per army – Beclaming Cognitation, Cube of Darkness, Dispel Scroll, Cupped Hands.
Vampire Counts
- Max 3 units/characters with the Ethereal special rule
Skaven
- Hell Pit Abominations and Warp Lighting Cannons are 0-1 unit selection per army.
- A Screaming Bell or Plague Furnace may only be placed in a unit containing no more than 50 models.
- Gutter Runners units are 0 – 2 per army.
- Warlock Engineers are 0 – 3 models per army.
- Skaven Slaves units may only be a maximum of 50 models per unit.
Dark Elves
- The Pendant of Kaleth and the Crown of Command may not be taken on the same model.
Hydras 0 – 1 unit selections per army.- Max 3 units with the ‘fly’ special rule
Empire
-
Steam Tanks are 0 – 1 models per army - No restrictions
Daemons of Chaos
- Infantry units may only be a maximum of 400 points per unit
- Max 4 Khorne Heralds and/or Bloodletter units in the army
- Max 3 units with the ‘fly’ special rule
Tomb Kings
- Only Skeleton Bowmen count towards the shot cap, all other “shots” in the army are excluded when calculating the army’s total “shots”
- Khalida is restricted to unit with 40 shots
High Elves
- High Elves may take units of up to 550 points, overriding the 450 point restriction given above
- High Elf armies may ignore the “same type” warmachine restriction
- Dragon Mage's additional dice do not count towards the '+2 cap' Winds of Magic dice restriction. They are effectively 'free'.
- Teclis may not be taken
Ogres
A maximum of 2 out of the 3 following items may be taken in the army: Greedy Fist, Lore of Death and Hellheart- If the Hellheart is taken then a Dispel Scroll may not be taken in the army
- Ironblasters are 0-1 choice
If a second Ironblaster is taken, Mournfang Units become a 0-2 unit selection per army
Orcs & Goblins
- Goblin Bolt Throwers do not count when working out your 5 maximum warmachine allowance
Beastmen
- Beastmen armies may take units of up to 550 points, overriding the 450 point restriction given above
Dwarfs
- Thorek may not be taken
Chaos Dwarfs
- Magma Cannons are 0-1 choice
- No restrictions
I think Stanks still should be 0-1, the rest is good.
ReplyDeleteHave you thought about doing something like a swedish comp rating as well? that would benefit more fluffier lists?
Swedish comp benefits nobody. Ever.
DeleteInteresting stuff Pete, I really like the look of the new SCGT and think it is well worth giving it a shot at some stage. I was looking to run it in Auckland at the Auckland Open but it would lead to divorce. My initial comments would be Skaven are not comped under that format and get off far too lightly compared to say Lizardmen. Those restrictions pretty much allow you to take the cookie cutter Bell list which is currently one of the strongest lists in warhammer. I would be in favour of something along the lines of the Lizardmen so only two of the following maybe taken – storm banner, doom rocket, brass orb, skalm, dispel scroll maybe? I’m not sure that is the correct combo but saying Beclaming Cognitation, Cube of Darkness, Dispel Scroll, Cupped Hands needs comping more than orb, rocket, storm banner etc. is probably a bit of a miss. The cap for the bell furnace maybe at 40 and the same for slaves? How about skaven slaves 0-2 unless a clan rat unit taken of 30+ models? Just something to mix it up a bit encourage the use of the furnace say? Really like the move to special characters and I think that adds variety. Anyway that’s my two cents for what it’s worth!
ReplyDeleteSounds very good to me, cuts out the more offensive builds and it would be nice to allow special characters as a lot of them allow changes to which units can be core in some armies which furthur increases the variations in the army lists which can be taken.
ReplyDeleteFor example none of the Skaven characters are overpowered (some are a huge point sink liability) but they allow you to make much more themed army's which for me is worth it, for example Lord Skrolk can let you take Plague monks as core and he's pretty brutal in close combat but he's only a level 3 caster and is 470 points with no armour or ward saves.
Thrott lets you take giant rats & rat ogres as core, he's not bad but hey his downside is how often do you see giant rats or rat ogres, plus you would auto lose in blood & glory as neither of those units can take banners.
Dave A.
I would add 0-1 steam tanks for Empire, do what gas monkey suggest with the skaven orb/storm banner etc, limit slaves to 40 per unit, leave High Elves at 450 max points like the rest as I don't think they need the extra boost with ASF/high initative (two units of 550 point white lions is nastier than most). I also don't think the magma cannon restriction is needed, 2 is alright. It would be better to limit the Helcannon/Mortar as 0-1 options or counts as 2 war machines, or just include the K'daai as counts as a war machine for army selection limits (0-5). Helcannons are nasty with re-rolls to hit. Just some thoughts
ReplyDeleteEverything looks good to me. Nothing huge. I agree with all the changes. specially the ones where people are given the ability to take two hydras instead of one, sure they're monsters but if people want two of them instead of more bodies, my cannons will be happier! And maxing the Ironblaster to 0-1 a good idea to, those things are the M1A1 Abram tanks of the Warhammer World to be honest. Maxing the magma cannons to 0-1 are a good idea due their awesome effectiveness against almost anything, especially with the Daemonsmiths rerolls, but that change can be argued, but I'm cool with it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, would I be pushing it if I asked for 6 warmachines? I just had to through in a Dwarf comment damit!
Guys,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the views. The idea is not to introduce restrictions unless they are necessary - permissive rather than restrictive.
Sam - Not sure why Stanks should be 0-1 any longer. I suspect most people view it as a suboptimal choice to the other possibilities in an Empire list. Why the concern? Is it a "cannon" concern?
James - Cupped Hands has greater potential to be game ending IMO. Personally haven't seen many people run bell or furnace units with more than 40 but if people feel that needs to be a cap I'd like to hear (particularly any actual experiences).
Re Lizards - think the ability to max out at 9 skirmish units is pretty strong.
Tim - Disagree re Magma Cannons. Yes, those 550 point units of White Lions with ward saves are nasty vs. an army that relies on shooting. I guess sometimes there will be bad matchups for CDs :-) Strange a CD player arguing for restriction on orb and storm banner
Simon - No
Happy to hear more thoughts - nothing set in stone.
Re: actually yeah just a cannon concern. I guess I've always seen it in tournaments as a 0-1 option.
DeleteWhite lions have only 1 attack so it seems fine.
Magma cannons are nasty. Facing 1 of them was enough.
I agree with stubborn and 3+ ward rerolling ones. Killing that guy is nigh on impossible and you can only do it with combat resolution or billions of shots. (don't hate me Hamish)
I'm quite happy with the limit of 4 Heralds and Bloodletters.
Thing with the magma cannon, though it is a very good WM, and my Dwarfs always crumble about having one that is as useful as their evil cousins. It still is a flat 145pts, wih no upgrades or anything attached to it. 145pts is still quite a lot of points considering the other things you could get. And if people want to have to, I'd say let them.
DeleteI'm quite on the fence mainly with magma cannon's. It's a thing that might be needing comp, and might not be. Depending on the circumstances. Against armies like Ogres, combining Ash storm (Makes them flammable) with the Magma cannon cause D3 x 2 wounds is pretty nasty. But with hordes armies. It's pretty 'Meh'
I would say it is pretty spectacular against both.
DeleteYeah I agree Sam, its good against hoard and Ogre, prob why there is some hate. But then you look at 145 points, (+95 minimum if you want a re roll) and it puts things into perspective. Its not like its undercosted like a warp lightning cannon
DeleteSee, all about the points!
DeleteMaybe my view on killing hordes was a bit off. However, the points to make the thing effective is quite dear indeed.
Looks good to me Pete.
ReplyDeleteOn the WOC restrictions (or lack thereof) perhaps the only thing I would look at is restricting the Chaos Lord on Disk with Stubborn and a 3+ Ward rerolling ones?
I suppose like you said needs playing first to see if any comp is needed but that's one combo that jumped out to me as one people might dislike.
Cheers,
Ross
WoC need to be played out a bit before they get comped,but i can see that a limit on the number of flying units may kick in .Apart from that i can't really see to much more that would need to be looked at.
ReplyDeleteYeah I don't think the comparison of doomrocket/storm banner to cupped hands etc. is a fair one. Yes the storm banner can be great but from personal experience I can promise you the downside to taking it is that it's random just like all skaven toys. Cupped hands etc. always work, there is no chance of it not working or backfiring and screwing yourself.
ReplyDeleteI get to chose when I put the storm banner up but I can't control when it comes down (50/50 each turn) it doesn't just effect my opponent it also affects me making for example my gutter runners, WLC or Doomwheel much less effective. Also it's only 50/50 it will actually stop that enemy cannon from firing while it is up and it costs 50 points which for a cheap horde army is quite a lot. Oh and also if you take the storm banner on your BSB it means he can't take any magic armour or weapons and clanrats can't take magic banners, slaves and/or giant rats can't take banners at all so you're only left with the Stormvermin who could (if you want to take a unit of stormvermin of course which is not exactly popular).
Even the doomrocket, yes it's cheap, yes it can be very devastating when it works right but again it's got a random range of between 4" and 36" (depending on how many dice you throw at it). Yes in perfect conditions if my enemy all clusters thier entire army in a big huddle in a corner and they let me skitterleap the doomrocket engineer into a perfect position to fire "down the line" then I'm probably going to kill a lot of shit but by then you deserve it :)
Limit slaves to 40 if you want, I feel 50 is too many anyway just as they are a bitch to manouver but lets face it they are T3, no armour and pretty much everyone will be hitting them on 3's as they are WS2. The only advantage they have is that they can delay an enemy for a turn or two with stubborn hopefully. I had a unit of 42 on the weekend and trust me they die very quickly and do very little in return but for 82 points delaying a nasty enemy for a couple of rounds of combat is very good. Would having 8 more models have made any difference apart from making them harder to turn? Probably not. But if you limit them to 40 instead of 50 then you do realise that any skaven who wants to delay/redirect could buy a naked engineer for 5 points less than the extra 10 slaves (or a rat dart) so it's a pretty pointless restriction. Unless you want to also comp Skaven so that we have to have even numbers of troops to our opponents? It's a horde army, it can't stand toe to toe against any other troop on an even footing thats the point! As Pete said the point is to allow as much freedom of selction as possible and only restrict the worst combinations.
If you take away from slave (or clanrat) unit sizes thats cool but you have to realise that the skaven player is just going to have to fill more units of chaff to even meet core requirements? With a cap of 40 models just to meet your 600 points requirement in a 2400 army you're going to need 2x units of 40 clanrats, 1 unit of 30 clanrats and 2x units of 40 slaves, thats 190 bodies in 5 units just for minimum requirements of core. Now if you start tooling the units up of course this reduces the numbers as does using Stormvermin instead of clanrats. Giant rats etc. would see use apart from just rat darts but they do not count towards core unless you take a special character (Thrott) and they cannot have banners.
Dave A.
Slaves don't need to kill anything, they just hold you up for 2 turns with steadfast 10, all the while the Skaven army is freely casting magic and shooting the hell out of whatever is in combat with them. Thats why I think 40 is a good number. Also I am pretty sure there are more core choices than just clanrats and slaves. What ever happened to weapons teams? I also believe the Bell in 40 Stormvermin with bsb and storm banner and discipline banner, with or without assassins, is the "worst combination". I am not saying ban it, just maybe try and make it less inviting if it affects what you can take in the rest of your army.
DeleteUnlike 3 character Cold One Knight Deathstar with MR3?
DeleteI don't think I will be playing that list again. Didn't suit my playstyle much. It still def has its weakness. Maybe if I run it again a Crown of Command might be on the cards :)
DeleteNo our core options are Slaves, clanrats or Stormvermin for the purposes of counts towards the core points, as I said there are other selections that can also go in core but either don't count towards your core points minimum (giant rats, swarms) or you need to take a special character to make them core (Rat Ogre's, plague monks & Giant rats). Weapon teams can be added but you can't take a weapon team on it's own it has to be taken as an upgrade to a unit and deploys with that unit (and can do what it likes after that).
DeleteSadly as weapon teams are unit upgrades not individual items I cannot take a weapon team with a unit of say Stormvermin as 40 Stormvermin with full command etc and banner are 400 points, the comp already prevents single non char units being above 450 and the cheapest possible weapon team is 55 (the grinder which is pants).
I personally like the weapon teams and have taken at least one in all but 2 tournaments in the past year (this weekend being one) but from a hard nosed perspective they have rarely ever gotten me thier points back. They range from 55 to 70 points and range from useless to potentially very damaging but they will die against anything with missile weapons (or magic missiles) before they get in range (they are all short ranged, max is the ratling gun 18" and are not move & fire apart from the mortar) they are T3 with 1 wound.
So if a Skaven player did take 40 tooled up Stormvermin with a bell, BSB and discipline banner as you put above you realise that would be unbreakable and take a while but it is a lump of around 1200 points (half your army) and the BSB would have to be totally defenceless with no magic weapons (because he can't take item & a banner it's one or the other) so to pick up a 1200 points you will have to be able to kill 40 t3 5+ armour save stormverminwho do 1x S4 attack back and if you are not in horde you will get two of the stormvermin in combat.
Do you think they would live more than a couple of rounds against a 1200 point unit of cold one knights with char's (or any 1200 point deathstar unit) or even get me any points back?
Dave A
Yes but with all your chaff and slaves, my bus unit should never see the bell combat. And it will be getting shot to shit on the way in. I guess this is where weapons teams could help? Don't weapons teams get a ward from being within a certain distance of the parent unit? It also gives more targets for the enemy to shoot.
DeleteI thing is, is that you are not taking the Stormvermin to kill things, you take them to not die. It is a huge chunk of points that the enemy shouldn't get.
Don't Night Runners count towards core?
Wouldn't you just take the lore of plague?
Yes I forgot about the night runners, they are 7 points per model (same as the Stormvermin) but have no armour T3 no special rules apart from they can tunnel (if you also buy them the tunnel weapon team for 60 points) they are basically unarmoured clanrats with ini 5 instead of 4 and I can't even buy them light armour or shields. While I am sure my opponent would love to have a 400 point unit of WS3, S3, T3, W1, A1, I5 LD6 with no armour pop up in thier lines out of my BSB or general range as long as they don't die while tunnelling in or get lost and not turn up (either way my oppennent get's thier points).
DeleteAlso I don't get why taking 40 Stormvermin instead of 40 clanrats increases the survivability of my Bell unit, they are both exactly as surviveable T3 5+ armour, but the clanrats can also get a 6+ parry so are actually harder to kill than stormvermin who have halberds (and no option for hand weapon/shield). The Stormvermin are 7 points each as opposed to 4 for clanrats, the only reason to pay the extra would be for the added offense as the only difference is that stormvermin have the higher strength & Ini.
Spell choice would depend but plague does bugger all against some armies (like Ogre's who are so prevalent they were 4 out of 6 games I played this weekend). On a side note those 4 Ogre armies were the same army it was like deja-vu all over but an excellent example of the general making the difference, won 1 big, lost 3 big.
Also what exactly is shooting your bus to shit? My 1 WLC or the gutter runners which will be very lucky to get anything through the 2+ armour?
I also have to consider the fact that while I have a lot of chaff or slaves to throw under bus's the enemy usually have cavalry and/or flying units which are massively faster & more manouvereable than my infantry and there's usually more than one so if you let me chaff/slave them all for 6 turns and you can't use the extra movement & flexibiity to get a decent charge then you're opponent is the one doing something wrong.
The point is you can't compare any of these things in a vacuum, you have to consider the overall list. Like I said I'm happy with this comp and the limits on Skaven but calling for more comp on Skaven in the units that have been suggested only restricts choice, it wouldn't do shit all to hurt the effectiveness of the army. Restrict the slaves unit size & numbers, no worries take more naked engineers, full of max 3 naked engineers take more giant rats, comp giant rats cool I will take swarms. End result you have to comp them all to stop it them every Skaven list will look the same just like the Ogre's right now.
Dave A
Yes, I agree that a flying cap is the most likely - similar to the DE one
ReplyDeletee.g. 0-3 Flying Units/Characters.
However let's see how things play out first
Oh and also I'm not sure how limiting unit's and or numbers of slaves encourages the use of the furnace, it can only go in plague monks which are not core (unless you use the 470 point special character with 3 wounds and no ward or armour saves). It would then mean the Skaven player has a minimum of 6 units of 30-40 models and one of them would be the unit of 40 toughness 4 unbreakable monks with 3 attacks each instead of the apparently much worse unbreakable 40-50 T3, 1A clanrats?
ReplyDeleteAlso the Bell in combat does bugger all itself apart from impact hits and the seer is a liability at WS3, S3, T4, W3, A1 as opposed to the furnace which also does the same impact hits plus does toughness test or wound with no armour in base contact, artillery dice worth of strength 5 hits and a pissed off Plague priest who has spells which all work in combat and is WS5, S6 (flail) T5, W2, A4 (frenzy) and is cheaper and does not put my close to defenceless general and level 4 caster in combat.
I don't get it....
Dave A.
Pete don't you play Skaven?! ha ha, having played them 40 storm vermin, 3 units of 40 slaves is 600 points with the +1 leadership banner.. that is the optimum build full stop. The bell is one of the most horrible units in combat if you play it with double assassins, it breaks steadfast of any unit in warhammer - I've gone through a gut star in 1 round.. skaven players moaning about their toys not working! Orb/rocket/storm banner are some of the most bent toys in Warhammer! So is the wheel. Being able to take wheel/cannon/abmob plus all the toys isn't comp. Just making players make choices rather than cake and eat it surely a good thing?
DeleteGutstar in one round....sounds like an urban myth and/or a very stupid Ogre player.
DeleteWhy would you accept a challenge from the bell restricting all the hi strength attacks coming back. Even then it's some pretty amazing rolling. The Seer has 50% chance of dying from an Ironblaster shot. By T3 he's probably dead.
As I said urban myth
I've told you I think Ogres vs. Skaven is pretty heavily in the OKs favour - just because Ogres are big they don't have to be dumb.
DeleteAh so there's the reason to comp out magma cannons. Its the one thing that neuters ogre gutstar. Skaven toys are still over the top, and 50 is to many for slaves IMO.
Deleteno urban myth - I did it to Paul Dalton. Weeping blades potion of strength plus sword of anti heroes..
DeleteRefuse challenge. Attack Bell. Crown of Command negates need for ranks. Sorry not seeing the wisdom.
DeleteYou must have rolled like a Daemon
Killed, 5 Ogres plus BsB I think? He didn't have the crown Even if he did, unit dies next round? Think champion had already died to cracks call so BsB in front rank plus he charged me
DeleteWell then it doesn't sound a very intelligent ploy, does it?
DeleteAs I said above urban myth or very bad generalship....and 5 ogres plus BSB without losing Bell suggests some very nice dice.
Did he have a magic phase?
I agree that less is more when it comes to comp packs, hard caps works far better than subjective comp. Everyone knows what to expect going in, no fuss and no long ridiculous calculations. I am also really happy that restrictions are getting smaller, shows a good direction for the army books in general and the community at large here in NZ.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who has run zombie units of 50+ I don't see the need to cap skavenslaves either, though I may lack the experience of why this was included in the first place. Would be a pain in watchtower trying to shift them though, as with zombies you can abuse unstable to get them out twice as quickly.
I'm not sure about taking 0-1 from Hydras. Like A-bombs, and army without cannons (or even shooting to limit the breath weapon once it hits combat) that relies on combat is going to have significantly more trouble with 2 than one, more so than simple arithmetic would indicate. I have no experience to back that up however, just the thought of 2 tearing up my lines.
The Khalida compromise is good meaning you don't have to restrict the actual character, just the abusive form.
Steam tanks aren't what they used to be, I don't see anything too worrying about more than 1 on the field. Everyone is bringing anti armour now with all the monstrous cavalry and knight buses running around.
Is the restriction on Ironblasters necessary? Cannons are cannons at the end of the day. Yes they are a lot harder to kill and significantly better on bounce but with the increase of monsters coming I don't see why the counter to such monsters should be restricted. They are a large chunk of points when you take them or they kill themselves. I still dislike them as an opponent but there shouldn't be a game where I am not frightened by some part of the opponents army.
Oh and glad Teclis is still restricted. I've never even played against him but can see why he shouldn't be around.
Ryan - I think the issue with Ironblasters is move & shoot. very very useful
DeleteMove and shoot is invaluable for a cannon, can make all the difference. Forgot about that. Not mitigated by 36" range? You've been running them as 0-2 for some time now, has something changed or is it simply apparent that taking 2 is a no brainer now?
DeleteThe issue for me is even if it misfires and looses its cannon, (on a 1 I think?) its still a toughness 6 chariot with 5 wounds and 4+ save.
DeleteLooking good.
ReplyDeleteI have 2 comments.
1) I would personally like it if the +2PD/DD (or potential +3PD/DD if have a d3 generating item) cap specifically exclude channelling along with night gobbo dice (as is channelling per wizard...not warp condeser generating).
Why:
Items, spells, and lore attributes that give dice are "certain", while channelling is a lucky nice to have. I've played games vs Slanns where they have channelled a dice and then used their allowed extra 2 dice from their ability and it hasnt broken the game. I am hard pressed to think of a situation where having 4 extra Power or dispel dice on phase simply due to lucky channel roles can be enough to seriously alter the game. A max cap of 12 dice/phase is a strong enough restriction anyway.
2) Watchtower and Blood and Glory mission objectives clarified that if you hold watch tower/break your opponent you are guaranteed a minimum win of 12-8.
Why:
The mission has to mean something. I know Mal will protest, but if you table your opponent but lose the objective = you havnt played the mission = you should lose the game, and by enough for it to be worth considering actually bringing some banners or contesting the tower. This alone should control the Internetz "chariots and monsters FTW" WOC builds, and also reward people for writing a tournament list that can play all 6 missions. 40k players have been doing this since 5th ed...I think us WHFB players have had enough years of 8th to get over the fact that not every game is pitched battle.
just my 2 cents :)
I agree, missions need more meaning, too many people play WatchTower and Blood and Glory basically as they would play Battleline.
DeleteI have to say this off course seeing, I changed the way VP's work for NatCon for these 2 scenarios for exactly this reason.
Mike
Yep, here's what I used to run - Skitterleap III - and hope to resurrect:
Delete>At Skitterleap III (2400 points)in early October we will be using the new scenarios. In order to meld these into the existing scoring system adjustments need to be made.
My intention is to have achievement of the win worth 1000 VPs. This will coincide with the threshold required to achieve a 15-5 battle score, therefore all other things - banners, vps etc being equal you'll get a 15-5 if you win.
Victory points will be determined as normal on top of this however the adjustment will have both a floor and a cap. The winner will have their score adjusted by up to -4 Battle Points on the downside and +5 battle points on the upside, giving a possible score of between 11-20 Battle Points. The loser will be able to score between 0-9 Battle Points.
Achieving the objective ensures that you win the game and score at least 11 points. I believe that such a system preserves the integrity of the scenario while allowing TOs to use the 0-20 system (thereby giving some differentiation in scores).<
Yuu forgot the most important one, Dwarfs are now extinct and cannot be taken . . .
ReplyDeleteMike
HAHA! I've decided to take my Chaos Dwarfs (My models this time around :D) to NatCon!
DeleteMy Dwarfs need some R&R anyways!
All that running across the table at NZTC tire them out, obliging off you after all that running to make it into my deployment zone to fail that stubborn 9 test with a re-roll in bottom of turn 6 and gift me a win.
DeleteForgot to attribute the above, was Mike
DeleteDwarves will never be extinct. They've just been retraining on the crossbow range, and will be back to turn you all into porcupines. Flat ones, due to the half-ton boulders fallling from the skies. Scorched flat ones, as some of those boulders will be flaming.
DeleteExtinct? Never.
My thoughts, not that they really matter any more though:
ReplyDelete1) Barring 0-1 WLC The best Skaven builds havent been touched at all... Having said that its all so damn cheap that you cap one thing and they just take something else so I'm not sure what you can actually do? Only thing I can honestly think of is Slaves can't use Generals Ld but that's changing the rules so that's not gonna happen.
2) as discussed with Jack Dark Elves are pretty bad in 8th so 2 Hydras is fine by me.
3) I'd be worried abou Demigryph spam but Id guess points limit that?
4) great call on 0-1 Blasters. Actually felt like I had a chance vs James' Ogres yesterday because he only had one to dodge. Other things went wrong of course but it was a chance.
agree on the skaven - limit the choices on the big toys. Single ironblaster is fine. Dark Elves are struggling so double hydra sounds good. It was a great game James! Not having a great weapon on your lord was massive.. you would have got that unit if you did.
DeleteOTT capped the number of units of slaves and the unit size. (40) I think one or the other would have been enough. Hard to fill skaven core with 120 slave maximum in the army. (Well, it pushes you to vermin over monks)
ReplyDeleteWeapons teams? Night runners?
DeleteClan Rats? Y'know, the models that supposedly make up the bulk of Skaven armies according to the fluff?
Deleteclan rats indeed, plus storm vermin are the cookie cutter pushing the bell
DeleteOTT had a unit cap of 40 models or a points cap of 450, skaven slaves were not individually capped.
Delete-Russ
3 identical core works to cap at 120... But that applies more broadly than the slaves.
DeleteGrey seer - Screaming bell, power scroll, fencers blades, skalm - 540
ReplyDeleteChieftain, Battle Standard. Great weapon 74
Warlock engineer, lvl1, dispel scroll - 90
Warlock engineer, lvl1, doom rocket - 95
Assassin - sword of anti-heroes, other tricksters shard, dragon bane gem. 170
Assassin - weeping blade, potion of strength. 170
35 storm vermin, full command. Storm banner. doom flyer, 375
40 skaven slaves, musician, paw leader - 86
40 skaven slaves, musician, paw leader - 86
41 skaven slaves, musician, 84
5 giant rats 1 pack leader - 23
5 giant rats 1 pack leader - 23
2 rat swarms 50
2 rat swarms 50
8 gutter runners, poison and slings - 144
Warp lighting cannon – 90
Hell Pit Abomination, Warpstone spikes – 250
pretty optimum skaven list? Fits right under current comp - as does the wheel or any of the other toys. If lizards are taking a hit skaven need it. slaves capped at 40 shouldn't be unfair? How about 0-3 wheel, abomb, bell, abomb, furnace? At least make them make a decision.
That list makes me feel sick just looking at it. Damn dirty rats.
Deleteand it could be coming to a tournament near you...
DeleteAgreed James, I have a Skaven army and this comp is essentially no comp especially when you consider how hard lizards are hit by it. I also think that the need for some comp restrictions on WoC will make itself apparent pretty quickly.
DeleteI think the new SCGT pack has to be the most reasonable, well thought out and sensible answer to the current Warhammer imbalances. I think NZ should adopt it as it would give a sense of standardisation to the global game.
Deletetwo tanks would be a terrible idea....it would give the Empire player the option of (essentially)four cannons....simply ridiculous.
I would not be keen to play the above pack. Especially with the inclusion of special characters...leave them for garage-Hammer. I mean you can't just include some special characters and not others....just totally stupid. Just keep the standardised army book Lord/hero and leave it at that....
Rory - You should organise and run an event using it. That's the best way to test it.
DeleteEmpire has four cannons James' optimal Skaven list has no bell/doomwheel at the end of Turn 1. Good thing? Bad thing?
Jeffrey - Not sure where Lizards are hit hard by it at all. Definitely the strongest list under this comp. Ask John Willenbruch (sorry Jack Armstrong :-) )
Ross - Chaos warriors? You know the thing you're meant to have more of than knights.
My list with the old book had 40 Chaos Warriors to 10 Chaos Knights, nice try Pete!
DeleteI'm a total fluffmonger.
Where were the Foresaken?
DeleteChilling out with your Night Runners and Yetis presumably!
DeletePete - I don't need to organise a tournament with the aforementioned pack because there is an infinitely greater number of people who will soon be playing with that pack in the U.K. Soon enough we will see if it works or not. Through the powers of observation we will be able to tell whether or not the pack has any utility in the current Warhammer tournament environment.
DeleteI am more inclined to want to play with a pack that has been designed by one of the people involved with running one of the biggest Warhammer tournaments in the world, which has received feedback from the world over from all forms of media (blog, Twitter etc)than the subjective choices made by (mostly Wellingtonians) a small collection of gamers in this country.
Four cannons would be terrible no two ways about it....it would be like dwarfs but with combat options, it simply would be shit to play against....imagine it on the board...9 demigryphs, 2 tanks, 2 cannons and one big block of halberds, 1 altar, 1 hurricanum (it's bad enough already). What a way to spoil the Warhammer aesthetic, simply shit, and we may as well just play Tonka-toys like all the 40k drop-kicks.
I kinda know what you are saying Rory, but isn't the new SCGT pack designed by 3 or 4 people as well?
DeleteRory - this pack is their pack from last year except with
Delete1) no limits on Starks or hydras
2) ironblasters and magma cannons 0-1
3) lizard skirmishes limited to 9 units
4) herald/blood letter units limited to 2
So I take some umbrage at the comment that it is a bunch of subjective choices made by a small number of wellingtonians
Sam - Yes SCGT is designed by a few people, however it is played by a far greater number of people. If both Skitterleap and SCGT were scientific studies then the SCGT would be a greater measure of gamer satisfaction by it's larger sample size....
DeleteOh good. I needed a list for equinox.
ReplyDeleteGreat... Now look what I've done!
DeleteDammit bro...
DeleteI agree with Rory. Not sure why SKrox unit is effectively being comped.
ReplyDeleteAlso I think if someone is playing within the rules of the comp pack and you call them a Dick several times you should have a 5 point sports hit.
People call you a dick for an entirely different reason John!
DeleteAs noted in the post the system is meant to be permissive rather than restrictive.
ReplyDeleteThe consensus here locally was that people wanted to bring their toys. That's important information and input for me as I am the one who bears the financial risk on the events I run.
I don't want to alienate half my customer base by telling them what I think they should run.
The original SCGT pack worked well from that pov by taking out only the most egregious things.
The new one doesn't necessarily do that and is somebodies' untested attempt to balance the game. It might work, it might not.
I think that bring your toys Is the consensus here in Aucklad mainly as well. Just if you hit lizards etc. Skaven should take a slight knock as well. Otherwise I fine with the comp. P.S can I borrow your skaven army? Ha ha
DeleteI don't think lizards are hit at all hard. Dual slaan, party slaan, deathhead slaan, multi Sally units, 9 Skirmish units.
DeleteJames - you can bring any of Jack Armstrong's lists :-) Or you could ask "What Would Curry Do"
Why is everyone else's army broken?
ReplyDeleteBTW where were all these broken Skaven at the NZTC?
ReplyDeleteSeems like they got left on the shelf for 90 Bloodletters.
DeleteThat's the thing - Lizards, Daemons, Dark Elves, Ogres, Warriors were all seen as better options :-)
DeleteI don't think because only one Skaven army showed up to the NZTC doesn't stop them from being broken or any less OP, could just be that their more optimal/competitive in solo play (I'm not sure but that could be a reason). Daemons are just the new flavor of the month and I'm sure we'll see our fare share of Skaven (if not see to much of the damn things) through out the months of 2013, just as well we'll see Daemons, again, probably to many Daemons for that matter.
DeleteI think if we had access to Skaven, we probably would have run them. Maybe not many people in the teams have or play Skaven? I can name 3 locals I know that play them, Pete, Locky, Dave and James Millington.. Please correct me if I am wrong.
DeleteI will correct myself....4 locals.
DeleteWe would have taken them but didn't have access to the models we wanted. I don't think the nerdymen had access to them either.
DeleteI think its more painting than tactics that stop people taking Skaven.
Given the restrictions are brought about by the new books shouldn't the wheel be comped as its IMO undercosted against the new monsters/cav. Shooting 3 shots with D6 wounds per turn into combat is nasty. May be 0-2 on Wheel, Abom AND WLC?
I don't have much of a prob with Lizard comp.
Is this the infamous SCGT (http://heelanassociates.co.uk/downloads/SCGT2013HouseRules.pdf)?
ReplyDeleteIf so I don't like the new direction. 12 models max in a building, really? Also VC pool is rubbish.
Yup, thats it.
DeleteIts always been 12 models in a building in the UK, as most tournaments are bring your own terrain (no only Maelstrom has enough for a whole tournie as generally 60-70 plus...) and it got horribly, horribly abused before that ruling. Ruined tournaments frankly.
DeleteBased on the NZTC apparently there are almost no buildings in Wellington, so it might not be necessary, but I'll leave the Terrain discussion for an NZTC feedback thread ;-)
As for the new comp system, I think it has good potential but I'd wait until the actual SCGT happens in May before making any judgements on it. After 180 players (almost more than the entire NZ tourney scene combined :-P) at the tourney have attempted to abuse the hell out of it, and we'll see what works and doesn't.
NZ with so few players leads to a completely different environment, so some things you think are silly are reasonable over there. Same happens in the Swedich comp system...
Absolutely agree 100%
DeleteWood Elves: Spellsingers may use the Lore of Beasts. BSB's may use/keep mundane equipment. Wood Elf deployed forest counts as normal.
ReplyDelete(No other restrictions)
It appears from some of his comments above that at least one person thinks that a small group of Wellingtonians are trying to foister their/his ill considered comp on the country.
ReplyDeleteNothing could be further from the truth. The post was an attempt to update the comp that had been used here locally for the release of new books.
Tournament organisers should always go with what they are comfortable with and what suits their aims.
As a player I prefer permissive systems and as a TO that's what I'll promote. I urge other TOs to promote their preferences.
Having a single countrywide system would be really boring and - if it was heavily restrictive - would be really unattractive for me. I acknowledge other people want different things. A healthy scene is an opportunity for them to run events to promote their preferences.
Ha ha no I don't think that it's ill considered but it is still purely subjective....but the fact of the matter is that whatever you decide to do Pete, will has a massive impact on the NZ wargaming tournament scene, and that is a compliment because you do do so much!
DeleteThe most important question is what do people want to see in a tournament?
If there could be something slightly more structured than a blog thread it may help to work the scene towards something that every gamer could enjoy....because I can't think of anything better than stacks of people turning up to warhammer events...
Ditto, diversity is a good thing, if every event in NZ used the same restrictions I would get bored really quickly.
DeleteIf you want every event you ever play in NZ or anywhere in the world for that matter to be identical try Warmachine.
Mike
It's funny how we talk about diversity when it's only meant to be one game lol! What are we playing? Are we playing Warhammer or War-Warhammer or That other Warhammer... crack up.
DeleteQuestion: isn't dwellers a hard counter to big bell units since the latest skaven FAQ? 50/50 the seer dies, no wards, no look out sir. Half the unit goes with him.
ReplyDeletePete, I think your comment at not putting people off by not allowing them their toys is probably the most important point.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I believe if 2k was normal, most comp arguments disappear as points limit would stop most OTT builds, I'm sure there are some ugly 2k builds out there as well, just options are much narrower, however after outrage at last years Natcon in Hamilton being 2k and it only getting 12 entrants this was a hugh factor in my thinking for Natcon pack this year. I didn't want to give people an easy excuse not to attend I felt, going to 2k would have deterred people in droves (maybe I was wrong and we'll never know), so I went the other way and upped points a little and removed almost all comp restrictions and allowed all special characters and monstrous arcanum beasts. Left myself with a veto (which I admit is imperfect mechansim) to prevent truely awful lists getting in.
Mike
Not sure how 2k solves it, Mike (though happy to be proven wrong)? You just end up taking toys away from certain armies (Greater Daemons, Elf Dragons, etc which are hardly broken) forcing them into even fewer possible build options, while armies like Skaven can still get all their toys into 2k cause they're so damn cheap.
DeleteSeems to me all you end up doing is knocking off solutions for dealing with problem armies for the more overpriced armies.
A suggestion that I would like to float is taking the concept of rare/special/core one step further than it is already applied by the points limits by placing a max on each type of unit that can be taken in each category. Again I would suggest 1/2/3 respectively. To me a rare unit should be by defintion rare, therefore having more than one in any army at the 2,400pt level is again by definition not rare, and so on down to special.
ReplyDeleteThis may be an overly simplistic approach, but should cover most of the issues, especially when combined with the unit points cap. There will most likely be exceptions that may need further adjustment, for example 3 bloodletter blocks. Will leave that for discussion by those that spend alot more time than me these days working these things out.
This concept would hopefully promote more variety in the use of rare and special units.
Anyway just a thought.
Stuart
Pete I applaud what you are trying to do but we are never going to get consensus on comp. You run great events (based off NZTC) and comp has never stopped me going to an event (we run some fruity comp up here!) so to quote field of dreams “Build it and they will come”. I really wanted to run SCGT up here at the Auckland open but would have led to divorce… Warhammer is never going to be 100% balanced the top armies (skaven, ogres, lizards, Daemons etc.) are always going to win the big events. This is further compounded by a lot of the better players using the top tier armies. On the skaven not I would have been all over skaven had I the army! Far more powerful than DE’s or even Daemons in that format. I thought you would bring Ogres/Skaven/Daemons/DE’s and was happy when you didn’t! I also don’t mind out of the book warhammer (I know this isn’t for everyone) but liked the uncomped big spells. I lost my BsB to dwellers game 1/turn 1 and really had to pull things together to get the win!
ReplyDeleteCheers JB
With news of Daemons release next month this will make their current comp restrictions superfluous.
ReplyDeleteRunefang will be running the new book.....wow, uncomped WoC and possibly uncomped Daemons - better loosen up those Skaven restrictions :-)
It will be An uncomped Daeemon book :) ...
DeleteEven if its just one.. This will probably be the one. I think GW have done quite a good job on the new books.
It may end up being a WOC and Daemon fest but oh well... New books need to be tried uncomped at least once before you can establish what is broken.
Pete,
ReplyDeleteThe comp pack looks good. Nice and simple. While I'd prefer one that balances out more of the discrepancies between the army books, I think it'd be so complex that it would be unworkable, or at least create additional problems. Simple and light is therefore better.
I wasn't a supporter of Special Characters, but have since come round, so nice to see them in.
Can you please confirm that the +2 magic dice also refers to dispel dice. That's been a common feature of your comp packs, I assume it's still the same.
The only addition I'd suggest is that the mundane equipment restriction on BSBs be lifted. It only applies to older army books (Wood Elves, Dwarves and Bretonnians) and is an unfair disadvantage to what are fairly marginal armies after all. Hardly a gameshifter in terms of power level, and will help align them with newer (post 2007) books.
On the Lizardmen restrictions, I personally have no issue with them, and as they stand they wouldn't cause me to change any list I'm likely to take. In the history of SCGT comp and/or Pete Lite it's predorcessor I can only recall once having to make a minor tweak on slann kit due you can only 2 of 4 or 5 discplines/items, and the list that has changed over time.
ReplyDeleteLooking at each
Salamanders 0 – 3 models per army.
Hard if not impossible to argue aganist, they're a bit random at times but overall they're first units I take in almost every lizard list.
Higher State of Consciousness and the Crown of Command may not be taken on the same model.
Personally never done it, or considered doing it, easy to see why it would be really annoying.
Skink Cohorts are 0 – 3 units per army. Cohorts containing Kroxigor do not count towards the cap.
Again, from memeory most non-skrox chorts I've taken is 3, not sure I'd want more.
Skink Skirmishers are 0-3 units per army.
Generally run 2, again have at time taken 3, generally I'm looking for 4-5 non skrox chorts and/or skirmishing skinks.
Only two of the following may be taken per army – Beclaming Cognitation, Cube of Darkness, Dispel Scroll, Cupped Hands.
I've never taken the Cube of Darkness in 8th Ed event, and not likely too, Cupped Hands, has become a stable of most of recent lists and it certainly a great item, from memory I've never dropped some down a hole with in competition play, but have got Pete 2 or 3 times in friendlies which probably explains his dislike of it to some extent. I wouldn't say it has no downside, it fails on 1, and I've lost a Slann after failing to offload a miscast and takes up a Arcane slot on the Slann which has other good options as well.
You can still take
3 skink chorts minus Krox
Unlimited skink chorts with kroxigor
3 Skirmishing skinks units
3 Chamoleon skinks units
3 terradons units
3 Salamanders split between 1 or 2 units
Looks pretty good to me.
Mike
I'm not sure where the overwhelming opinion that everything Skaven is broken came from (maybe the fact that Pete used them alot to smash people). I have been usually mid table in the tournaments I have played (only been playing for 1 year), some big wins, some big losses can't remember ever having a draw :)
ReplyDeleteYes when they work it can be devastating and I fully understand that but from the other side you have to understand that they are probably more random than any other army (apart from O&G). The randomness that comes with all of the Skaven toys is the built in comp to retain balance.
Is the WLC cheap and potentially deadly? Hell yes it is, it's 90 points compared to what 120 for an empire great cannon? Both do d6 wounds, both can effectively ignore armour one from the fact it's always strength 10 the other from a ignores armour rule same end result but while the cannon is always strength 10 the WLC could be 2,4,6,8 or 10 on the strength so much less reliable for doing what you want a cannon to do, take out big multi would targets. Also WLC is toughness 6, cannon is 7. Then we get to misfires, WLC blows up on a 1,2, 3,4,5 it fire's at S10 in a random direction and is sitting in your own doployment so most likely you're going to hit one of your own units and 6 it doesn't shoot. Anyone else got a cannon which has a 33% chance to blow up, 50% chance to shoot your own units and 17% chance to just not fire?
I keep getting people complaining when a WLC hit's thier mournfang and I get lucky and roll a 6 to wound with the strength 2 shot and they don't get an armour save. But if any other cannon in the game had hit them they would have been at strength 10 wounded on a 2 and they would not have gotten an armour save anyway so why the WLC hate?
All of the Skaven "toys" have great potential and I love them but when it comes to comp you have to take into account the fact that they all have built in disadvantages, (randomness, potential to destroy your own army etc.)
Pete knows the army well, he knows what it can and cannot do and he's right to say it's overall going to come out second best against say Ogre's as it as without comping them more. Is it stronger than some armies yes, does that mean we should comp every army down to Wood Elf army book level then?
Used the WLC but happy to point out the built in downside(s) to any of the other "broken" Skaven toys in a bullet point list. The Skaven book is excellent but it's excellent because it has a huge amount of options and I love that I have never used the same list twice. The toys can be game winners when they go right but they can be a huge liability when they go wrong and despite all the "it's an easy beginner army to play" the difference between mid table Skaven and podium Skaven is the general, as it is with any army.
This is why I have bid mid table all year :), I have no doubt that if for example Pete or Locky had been playing mostly Skaven this past year there would have been a lot more Skaven on podiums but that's not the army, it's the generals which is as it should be. The fact that the podiums and top armies have all been different says that the comp is working pretty well, this is just a tweak to that same comp based on actual experience not just theory hammer.
Dave A.
I’ve got 99 problems but comp isn’t one.. Sorry couldn’t resist. I do have some Skaven experience to draw from, 2 NZ tournaments last year two 1st places… and despite the accusation from Locky I only played chumps (maybe a few!) 5 players over the two events were Masters Qualifiers this year (not all attended due to other commitments). So not a bad experience to comment from. Skaven are by far the best army in Warhammer full stop currently. It’s not really close. Lizards played well are also up there as are Ogres and Daemons (new format might change that). They almost have no bad match up’s, I know Pete you think ogres have the edge but I disagree overall. The skaven have every toy to beat ogres pretty well (two ironblasters makes it closer) the orb, wheel, cannon and cracks call wreck ogres not to mention the doom rocket is pretty good (yes random but if the rocket or orb were in any other book they’d be in every list). The storm banner controls the ironblasters to an extent as well. Tell me what skaven can’t do? They have excellent magic, shooting, war machines, magic items as well as bent toys and then combat power in the bell/furnace and double assassin. I’m not in any way anti skaven I loved playing them and they are a quality army but they are top of the pops in warhammer so might need a slight bit of comp! I took them uncommped to TBM double cannon and it wasn’t even funny I think I scored 102 out of 120 battle points? Yes it also comes down to the general (they are not auto win) but there are plenty of poor daemon/ogre etc. players down the bottom as well as skaven.
DeleteDave, A normal cannon doens't come with a template at the end allowing it to hit all ten knights in a unit...
DeleteMy only real problem with Skaven armies is the shear frustration that comes of being mired in Ld10 Steadfast Skaven Slaves (which for some reason are the most dependable combat unit in the game?) while your opponent blasts the crap out of you (and please don't tell me I should just avoid getting in combat with them front on as only a terrible Skaven player lets that happen.). I'm really not that worried about anything else.
I just look at the other comp with caps designed to avoid ruining the enjoyment of a game. Ie. Skinks chaffing you up all game and never letting you engage, Capping warmachines and shot caps to force armies away from super dull gunlines, Thorek etc, and wonder why its fine for Skaven to be allowed to force armies into super dull grindfests?
But meh, I'll play Warhammer whichever its presented to me
@ Gas_Monkey I don't know who's who yet on handles to real names, you obviously have experience with Skaven and know what you are doing with them.
Delete@ Meals yes it does come with a smll template if you get lucky and guess the range right in the 4-20" it could travel and doesn't also roll 2 for strength. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying that you have to give some points off for the random factor and it is already comped to a max of 1. Which is fine by me, my point is what else would you do ban them all together? Also I have never hit 10 knights, ever, would that even be possible with a small template? Do you run knights in 3x3 blocks?
I don't disagree with the fact that Skaven are a top tier army. The point is that this is a discussion on comp and as Pete said this is meant to be permissive as possible to encourage some choice in the army lists. Skaven is comped, suggestions like restrict both the number of slaves in a unit and the number of slaves on top of what Pete already has seems counter productive. Have you ever seen anyone take 3 units of 50 slaves? I haven't.
If you tighten the comp on slaves above what it is you only start a chain reaction. Skaven are a horde army, they are not very good fighters, take away slaves and the core will by necessity expand the number of clanrats/units which will have full command 5+ armour, parry save and still be stubborn, there will be less of them but it will take you even longer to chew through them and they are more likely to be doing some damage back plus they have higher WS so are harder to hit.
This whole conversation isn't about the strength of the Skaven book it's about how can we best have a comp system that stays light and permissive. If you tighten Skaven comp much more you will force Skaven into a set list that will be just as rough but possibly in different ways, that helps no-one. We can't re-write entire army books we can just try to prevent the biggest abuses of the books.
Dave A
Bretts run 3 x 3 yes, but you're right it would be 8 knights for everyone else. And its happened to me on several occasions running my Bretts.
DeleteYes, I would gladly take combat with Clanrats over Slaves any day of the week! At least I'm not gonna get every shooting attack and spell the Skaven player can throw at me while I'm in there. As for it being harder to fight, the only substantial difference is Parry saves. Any decent combat unit in Warhammer hits them both on 3s, wounds on 2,. just the same :-)
I agree, the Skaven players will just take something else good, its a function of everything being so cheap, but at least it might just be more exciting than grinding through Slaves, while you get shot in the face for 2 hours :-P