Given it is only two more sleeps until the book is officially available I won't repeat the full info here. I'll take it that you have the wherewithal to check out Warseer, Dakka or TWF to read the relevant threads.
What I will do is give you some potted highlights as I see them:
- No more Puppet
- Skullcrushers go to 80 points, lose a point of Toughness, gain a Wound
- Banner of Rage = MoK only
- Revised EotG Table giving Stat increases (Stubborn is 12, only for units)
- Chariots are Core and Chaos Hounds fully count as Core
- Third Eye no longer steals opponent's spells
- Daemon Prince now has 2+ AS and much more viable
- Cost of Marks now on a "per model" basis
The three most annoying things have been addressed - Puppet, 3rd Eye and EotG shenanighans - and that is good.
Roll on Saturday.
All I have to say is B*** S**t,, from what I've read on warseer and other forums WoC have had an across the board increase in points values without gaining a thing in return especially if the rumours are correct about WoC upgrades like halberds increasing to 3 points per model are true. If you took the points increase in isolation its disappointing but when you consider the lose of some of the most important items that helped offset these issues its a kick in the balls!
ReplyDeleteI cant understand the changes (overall) especially when you compare WoC to other competitive army's like Orges, Lizardmen, Empire and Skaven, basically Warriors of Chaos were on the cusp of being a Tier one are but have been totally bumped to Tier 2 or 3 especially since the leadership and movement issues weren't fixed..
The changes in my opinion that need to happen were an across the board points decrease on the majority of units (except juggers and knights which were prefect) and some tweaks on items like EoGT , 3rd Eye and the loss or fix of Infernal puppet.
Dont get me wrong I dont mind losing puppet or them fixing issues like third eye but increasing our overall unit price is pretty low.... and Juggernauts to 80 points after only releasing them @ 60 points 2 1/2 months ago is total crap especially since 1 wound and -1 toughness doesn't justify the increase at all...
Feel free to dispute anything Ive said but I've religiously played 8th Ed WoC for last 12 months and attended 90% of Wgtn's tournments with them in tow! Juggernaut changes are my biggest issue though especially since I brought 12... and GW just F**ked me....
I'm praying to god that some of the rumours are incorrect but in all honesty it's looking bleak, the only rumour I actually agree with is hellcannon gaining a 5+ ward and inc in cost to 210....
See http://www.thefieldsofblood.com/2013/01/warriors-of-chaos-no-free-lunch.html
DeleteThose Skullcrushers have just doubled their survivability vs. cannons
but I understand that you now only can fit seven in (previously nine). You can always put characters on them if you want to use them.
The real clusterf#@k is that they were only released 3 months ago but clearly they overpriced the negative effect of Frenzy
yep a big clusterf**K..
DeleteI think the bigger issues are:
Not reducing the Chaos Lord's value from 210 to 170-180.
No leadership bump or change to Lord or Hero lvl characters or a special ability like coldblooded or hold the line.
Overall increase in price of most units, most upsetting is the clear overall core Warriors of Choas points inc.
and less of an issue no increase in their movement to 5"
It's being referred to as "The Skullcrusher Betrayal"
DeleteSounds like a Robert Ludlum book
While I can understand the issue re, buying a pile of Juggers for them to be priced out of your army, is pretty shit. I seriously think 80 pts is a fair price for them especially with 3 Wounds a piece, (massively more survivable imo), they now put out alot more damage than MF do at 70pts each.
ReplyDeleteMarauders were always way too cheap. Chaos Warriors actually got cheaper in base cost....so did half the characters I think, and besides you can just take hard hitting Chariots/Horsemen for Core if you don't like that. You also now have a whole range of monsters, which from the sounds of it are fast and effective, Chimeras sound ace!. Daemon Princes are crazy good with decent armour and stats, and the new magic lores also sound pretty sweet.
Basically what I'm trying to say is the entire book is a completely different experience now. You cant just run your old army and expect it work. It'll need a start from scratch approach, but I am loving pretty much every rumour I've heard, and am seriously tempted to jump on the band wagon myself :-D
I dont have an issue with Maruaders points increasing since I found them extremely underwhelming especially since you can EASILY redirect them and their movement 4 is crap.... As for Juggers based on their old stats and price Juggers were balanced(in my opinion).
ReplyDeleteI agree the book is diffrent but tweaking units without addressing the army's core issue which are simply overpriced characters (and some units), poor leadership values (on lords/heros), low movement and a couple broken items the changes are very average..
Consider this - Core WoC unit
18 WoC shields/halberds + MoK = 336 under old points, under new system its approximately 360.. without any change in stats? doesnt make sense....
Chaos lord is 210 with nothing on it... I can get a Orc Lord with similar stats that doesnt have to chellenge every round that has 1+ AS and 4+ Ward plus a cheap magic sword... the diffrence is WS 7 vs WS8 or 9.... and +1 attack... and all I get is a 4+ armour...
Thats pretty pathetic.. High Elves - I get 150 lord, 45 ToP, 25 Armour Caldor and 8 GW = 228 for 2+as 4+ws 4str6 attacks always strikes first re-rolls to hit if Int higher...
Doesnt that seems wrong to you just a little? oh and he's leadership 10..
dont forget hes unbreakable, apparently
DeleteChaos Lord is not unbreakable.
DeleteI've read the book and it is great and well balanced. There is a tonne of options now and the special/rare sections are overloaded with variety. Nothing in the book screams broken at first glance for the points. There is however some very nasty combinations
There will be many many happy Warriors of Chaos players come Saturday.
Oh yeah Throgg army generals will be happy with Chaos Trolls being 35 points now
Wow.. some pretty strong reactions. I tend to agree more with Meals though, I think if you look overall the book is looking pretty positive, with some better internal balance (although not perfect).
ReplyDeleteI'll preface this by saying that if/when the daemon book drops in a month or so, I will likely have the same initial reaction, but I like what I'm seeing so far from the WoC.
Skullcrushers had to be made more expensive. They crushed all other monstrous cav without problem, so at least they had to be made more expensive than mournfang. I think the t5/2w vs t4/3w is a bit of a wash, but it makes them more resilient against things that really worry them (cannons, lore of metal, multi wound weapons). GW took away with one hand and gave with the other and rebalanced them nicely. They were an auto-include before, now you'll have to think about how to best use them vs other options.
Marauder points increase was needed after the general infantry point increases in other books. They're fairly pricey now for how fragile they are, but they still put out a mass of damage. Marks going to per model probably effects these guys most and I think that's a good thing as they (possibly) benefited most from them.
Warriors points are again a bit of a wash. A basic warrior with halberd costs the same. Great weapons are a point cheaper. HW+S are a point cheaper. I think that balances the choices out nicely. Halberds were such an obvious choice, but now you may want to use HW+S more and get your hard hitting units elsewhere (although UK lists were already doing this). Again, marks costing per model is a good balance, but may encourage more people to try units without marks (which almost never happens now).
As for the lord comparison - he's better than the orc and as well as access to a 3+ ward save (other magic items are yet to be seen) and he's s5/t5 compared to s4/t3 on the elf (and has access to asf through helm of many eyes). Yes he's more expensive, but in context he needs to be. An army with 2 flying 1+/3++ beat sticks and 10 60pt skullcrushers would be horrific to face.
**(Also, from the rumours, 3rd eye lets you reroll 1s on your ward saves.. 3++ and reroll 1s.. there should be no complaining there)
The book is simply being rebalanced and I think it will stack up well vs the other 8th ed books and will hopefully lead to some different builds and more variety in units taken where unit choices aren't so obvious.
Skullcrushers - I'll agree to disagree on that point, the only thing I think they needed to do was either fix the AS cap or allow you to drop the shields.
DeleteMaruaders - no arguments there, but they are terrible (personal oppionion) and I ran 2 hordes when I first started and hated them. - po
Warriors- I think the weapons upgrades were fairly priced before and all they needed to do was drop the points cost to 13 but 14 isnt to bad.
Marks per model will increase the overall cost of a unit especially if you upgrade to halberds... anyone whos played warriors will know that units smaller than 18 models in 2400 list is pointless (especially with steadfast being a major part of the game). Small WoC units is just giving your opp easy points but be my guest.
I think the Marks were fairly well costed for most units overall so Im not sure why they had to change them.
Tzeentch units came out alright but any other unit got a kick in the balls and thats assuming Tzeentch is 1 point per model....
Lord comparison - I was simiply illistrating the significant differnce in points cost and what you can get for the same amount in other "elite" armies. Yes a chaos lord stat line is better but once they are facing a geared up opp it doesnt really matter especiallyu when yours cost 320+ points and theirs is 210-230...
If I equip a chaos lord with ToP and similar upgrades to get a 1-2+AS
and 4+ ward it will cost at minimum 300 points and basically all I get is 1 attack more. Yes I have better toughness but vs the orc he still wounds me on 2 or 3's and the high elve wounds on 3's... so the toughness is more irrelevant....
Additionally I have to challenge they dont, so army's can feed me low lvl heros and champions while their lords can go to town...
It be nice to have a chaos lord and sorcerer lord with some gear in one army as everyone else is able to at 2400....
leadership is still a major issue in WoC unless they have changed the re-rolls rule to actually be helpful....
I have No issue with infernal puppet changing or gateway however third eye isnt overpowered but I guess with WoC having access to other lores now its a touch redundant.
Chaos lord with 2+ AS and 4+ ward is 255 points. Add to that he can easily now get +1 to a lot of stats with the EotG rolling.
DeleteTo be fair thought Daemon Prince is 235 and better again
As the top WOC player in NZ (smugsmugsmug)
ReplyDeleteI love the most of the changes.
Skullcrusher, whilst more expensive, now have 3 wounds, improved Blasted Standard to make them virtually immune to cannons for 25pts. Also, the Juggernauts gained an extra attack and are strength 6 on the charge.
Say you give a unit of 5 Lances. If they charge something, they are kicking out 30 S6 attacks at WS5 and 5 S6 stomps. You can take metal magic now, so not hard to make them hit on 2s. That will wreck face.
Daemon Princes have been given a huge boost.
Chimeras look potentially really good, flying, regen and a Breath weapon? Yes please!
Hellcannons got an uneeded boost, not going to complain about that.
Core Chariots and Forsaken opens up lots of options for a fast punchy force.
New magic items and banners sound good compared to most 8th ed books.
Marauders where undercosted before, I didn't use them out of personal preference. Price hike is a bit harsh, but not unexpected.
Knights stayed the same and are still good.
Spell Lores sound interesting.
EOTG abuse is gone. People will be happy about that.
Doubt the book will be any weaker. It should stay solid middle tier, which is where all books should be.
I'm buzzing with a million ideas for lists and am very much looking forward to the new book. WOC should be more fun to face and more interesting to play.
Good times all round I think!
Cheers,
Ross
I am glad I sold my old WOC army, as I agree with James that starting afresh is the best plan of attack. I think the old juggers needed an increase in points, as they were far too good. Compared to bull centaurs they were a steal.
ReplyDelete2 wounds and no upgrades apart from lances is what made them fairly costed... they are also rare where Demi's and m.fang are special so you lose access to hellcannon and other good rare options if you choose to take them like I did...
DeleteHonestly guys can you say that WoC were a busted army or even on the same power level as armies like Skaven, Deamons, Empire, Orges and Lizardmen? If they were you'd see tons of them in every compedition here and overseas... Look at the recent UK events over the weekend it was Southern Slaughter (or something) of the 60+ army's there were only 2 WoC lists compared to 10+ Skaven, Orges and Lizardmen.....
All warriors needed was a few unit tweaks (price and stats), a inor leadership boost to characters and a few adjustments to gifts/magic items such as Infernal Puppet and it would have been ALL GOOD!
Its interesting to read everyones opinions, I guess worst comes to worst I'll just play my big Skaven army...
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure most ppl would rather play my WoC list or the brick in a sock as Pete puts it...
Hamish, you are simply going through the same grieving process every player goes through when their armybook gets updated. General internet wisdom states that all books only need "tweaking" (even dwarf players think this!), when really given the direction of 8th and GW in general, they are in for an overhaul.
DeleteI have 60+ flagellants all lovingly painted packed away for 9th ed along with my mortars, Rocket battery, swordsmen, freecompany detachments, handgunners and crossbows. I almost also packed up the halberds and Great Swords too. (never owned any spearmen, but they would have been packed if I had any).
However the Empire play style didnt change that much; I just had new toys to play with and (more importantly) new painting projects! Now, I couldnt imagine going back to the old book (well, maybe the old stank...). I can almost guarantee that rage quitting the book will result in regrets.
Instead, give it a good read, block out the internetz, take in the new internal blance, use what you like and go from there.
Just my 2 cents
Joel v
Excellent call Joel. Thats what I am going to do. I am going heavy Slaanesh themed, so no Khorne, Nurgle or Tzeentch for me. I am admittedly limiting myself a bit, but who knows, MOS might be the new black?
DeleteDude, that's racist :P
DeleteJoel v
Skullcrushers are 75 points with options for lances (2) and enscrolled weapons (3).
ReplyDeleteI think one of the "issues" that has emerged over the last few years is that each new codex / warhammer armies book does not really get some mentally overpowered rule / unit that makes that army the fotm.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that it is more of an adjusting / balancing approach with some cool looking (opinions vary) new toys thrown in the mix.
As such many people get upset about the state of their new book as a power buff is no longer the status quo.
a new book is a wonderful thing.. who wants the same stale old book forever? Having seen it I think there is still plenty of filth to be had! 3 Chimera in special with regen for 15 points?! Called it here...
ReplyDelete