When this was revealed, there was much gnashing of teeth and angst that the world had ended. Immediately some TOs started re-writing the rules to award points if a unit was fleeing or under half strength.
“It means that you can flee charges with no impact on the last turn” seemed to assume the same importance as the Global Financial Crisis had on the Greek way of life. The world was ending, we just weren’t sure how soon.
Similarly, tactics whereby you reduced a unit below half strength and then went and hid in a corner – preferably also collecting 100 points for the quarter – suddenly weren’t tactics. Now the shooty avoidance army is largely a bad memory. You have to be able to finish the job if you want to win big.
And guess what? Again the change didn’t herald the end of the world. Instead it meant you had to change tactics and your list build – and ADAPT!
These days you only rarely see TOs meddling with the Victory Points – for example at the home of v7.5, the ETC – the rest of us have gone on adapted.
That means a few things:
- Sufficient firepower to finish units off
- Some combat/magic offense (predominantly) to get points out of the bigger units you see. This means big spells but also some combat capability if you want to win big
- Secondary chargers with 20” reach – so that if people flee then you make them flee again
For me, there are far more big combats involved in the game now. That surely is a positive. Evolve or die!
Rule Change: A
I'd give this an A as well.
ReplyDeleteI never did understand the logic behind table quarter victory points - what was the value of a corner of a battlefield? Why would 5 chaos hounds deployed in each corner need to attract so much attention? Why, having cleared everything out of one corner, did you have to go back and garrison it for the last turn?
This rule has also gone a long way to compensate for all the other rule changes that changed the role of heavy cavalry. Heavy cavalry are notoriously difficult to finish off completely and so they retain their points. Conversely they are excellent at finishing off units with their higher movement and swiftstride.
The "flee in the last turn tactic" seemed a bit frustrating at first but I don't give it a second thought now.
Neil
I still find the "flee in the last turn" 'tactic' to be very frustrating, mainly due to the lack of drama that it brings to the game. A close game can be brought to just as dull an anticlimax as the shooty avoidance games. One of the reasons I play this game is the visual excitement of watching two armies compete and having the story of the battle unfold. The heroic forces fleeing to victory just doesn't do it for me.
ReplyDeleteIt's got little to do with not being able to adapt, I have done and still do well. I just don't like it.
I'm glad to see table quarters gone though, that made no sense at all.
Sorry Pete still not convinced;
ReplyDeleteThe shooty avoidance list never really scored that well anyway;
What it has encouraged (along with other changes) is more buses, point denial lists. Sure you can/should adjust your list to cater for that; just not the sort of lists I find enjoyable to play against.
Raymond
cf. Mal's Lizards?
DeleteI'd rather play vs. a bus list than either Mal's Lizards or a two Seer Skaven list.
DeleteI think playing against armies with big units (either in points or # of models) you have to make a decision early whether you can get the points of not. I've had plenty of moments where I've committeed and then realised I made the wrong decision :-)
The thing is though that you know you will win if you take the unit out.
But I think the emergence of bigger units has been tempered by army design. twelve months ago my Skaven were seeing Marauder hordes. I needed to adapt my list to deal with them. These days you don't see Marauders so much.
The avoidance list is more boring to play against. After playing Lizards a lot - an no Mike's list isn't like Mal's - I realised that Mournfang were better in 2s rather than 3s just in case you were faced with chaff.
I think people forget that I never used to own a Slann till August 2011, and used to run 48 saurus and Carnosaur Lord.
DeleteThe armies I play currently are for ETC training, and whilst I can appreciate that they are not fun to play against, tournaments that allow ETC builds will always be see as play testing opportunity. Always aiming for a 12-8 win/loss.
Fun Bus vs Pew Pew, both for me are fun to play with, you have to really precise in your fleeing, where as when i had the fun bus, a classic 6 dice monkey and booooomm 21 str 10 attacks 8 str 8 and 4 str 6, take your steam tank off, is also fun. swings and round abouts
Regarding Fleeing all the time. You guys need to choose to roll higher on the dice :)
Mal used to be a hobby gamer now a gamey XXXX
Mal
DeleteWatching you play a few games on the weekend and despite being an avoidance list - you were still up and mixing it. Personally I'd prefer to play that one, than the bus. The bus to me is do I have an answer, and generally thats a no with my lists. So if I can't get all of the bus then its try to avoid it. If however there was 1/2 points I might be tempted to try and chip away at it.
I certainly haven't forgotten the carnie; and once ETC is over, with your experience of both bus and pew pew will be interested in the list you do truck out.
I'm picking that players that have forgetten; or who haven't noticed that you averaged that 12 which included a blood and glory game so down 600 points before you start against a hard daemons list will soon remember.
Raymond
I think you should still get VP's if a unit is fleeing at the end of the game. Other than that I am happy that the meta has changed to larger units.
ReplyDeleteI'd give 50% points for units fleeing at the end of game, simply to provide a deterant to fleeing in the last turn with impunity.
DeleteRest of changes I'm fine with.
Another option would random game length, so you don't know with certainty when the last turn will be.
Mike
See, I'd love that. It works for 40k and I think it would work for Fantasy just as well
DeleteAgreed. Random game length would be fantastic.
ReplyDeleteExcept for Hagen and Neil......
ReplyDeleteIf all my games randomly finished on turn 4 there wouldn't be a problem
DeleteNeil
While I agree with Ray it does have the unfortunate side of effect of people creating a bus. But then again you could do a Mal Bus/Joe Bus where all the points are in characters, Not units, So To be honest Half points i don't think fixes the problem...
ReplyDeleteI never found the Flee everything last turn to be an issue.
And there are several ways to STOP them from doing it. Creating an all infantry army is not really the answer. I won't list them, but im sure you guys mainly know having speed in your army(Fly, cav , chariots), More Units, Units that can deploy in a funny manner (Ambushing). General Posturing on the battlefield, backing them up against the table edge. )
Part of the reason for no points for fleeing units was it gave Undead / Daemons a huge boost!
Generally I'm a fan of this change until I put my woodies on the table. All weekend my #1 problem (after lvl4 dying every game) was units with 1 or 2 guys left alive holding all the VPs. Sure it is a flaw in the bowline + chaff combat approach, but that doesn't stop it being mighty annoying!...looks like I'm switching to life for dwellers FTW!
ReplyDelete