So at Runefang V this weekend we have a third of the field using either Dwarfs or Skaven. This presents an opportunity to decide which truly is the superior race (obviously it is clear to all but the repositories of numerous recessive genes - gingerism, stuntyism, tail deficiency etc).
The nine players involved are:
Dwarfs
Thomas van Roekel
Matthew Hassell
Simon Switzer
John Murrie
Skaven
Daniel Butler
Locky Reid
David Appleby
James Millington
Some Old Grey Seer
Therefore I am willing to offer a prize for the race that wins the most games in HEAD to HEAD matchups.
It is important to point out to my stunty friends that 10-10 is not a win, no matter how much you want it be. A win is where you score more battle points than your opponent. Therefore minimum win is 11-9. It is said that I have to define a win but.....well if you've played against Dwarfs you'll know what I mean.
Centrebet have just called and told me they have framed the market. Skaven 5/1 on, Dwarfs 4/1. So the smart money has already flowed in.
i'm pretty sure there will now be interminent Dwarf grumbling about how its not a fair contest - and to be fair, it's not - Skaven are the superior race. There will also be calls to class better than 8-12 a Dwarf win etc.
I love Dwarves and I hate Skaven, but my money would be on the mice to win this one.
ReplyDeleteThe Dwarf book is solid, but it's old and lacks too many key capabilities. No magic, no skirmishers, no cavalry/warbeasts/move-and-fire shooters etc. The artillery is awesome, but it's two-dimensional, and if it's not working well, the Dwarves are in trouble. Dwarf anti-magic is strong, but can't stop IF spells, and I can see a lot of 6 turn/6 dice Dreaded 13th going on (especially from those who brought a second Grey Seer........)
The Skaven have too many cool toys, in particular the Gutter Runners and Storm Banner, which neuter Dwarf artillery nicely. Seriously, if anyone can tell me how to deal with multiple units of Gutter Runners without castling, I'd love to know. Organ guns don't work, as they're the first to be poisoned. Then there's the Doomrocket, Brass Orb (watch out for Skitterleap), 2 excellent spell decks.....
Dwarf combat is either cancelled by Abomb/Furnace supported by deep units of Slaves (to break Steadfast) or ignored by M5 units staying out of reach.
Throw in two top-notch Skaven players in Pete and Lochy, and I reckon the Dwarves are definitely the underdogs here.
Dwarves can beat Skaven, but it's a bit like watching Wales play the Wallabies. The Welsh can do it, they have done it in the past and you really want them to squash the Aussies/ratboys, but you know it's unlikely.
Pete will say I'm just grumbling. Maybe I am, but like I said, I'd bet on the Children of the Horned Mouse this weekend. Maybe next year when the new army book gives us Ninja Dwarves and Level 4 Shadow mages (hey, it could happen, how did Ogres get awesome cannons......?) then it'll be a fair match up.
Sorry all I heard was "Grumble, Grumble, Grumble"
ReplyDeleteWhy are dwarfs so popular? Perhaps its just me, but I would rather watch two hobos smash their genitals with the blunt end of a tomahawk than any game involving dwarfs ever.
DeleteIs it just me? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills over here.
Not all Skaven are using Storm Banner (in fact only one in five of the Skaven are).
ReplyDeleteNot all the Skaven have Gutter Runners.
Only three of the Skaven have a Furnace.
But yes you are correct, the majority of Skaven are their core Clanrats and Slaves
But all the Dwarfs have Artillery and Anti-Magic out the wazoo. And all visited the Great Weapon Emporium on route to the event, dropping in at the 2 for one Cannon sale.
Perhaps the Vermin-kind are just more adaptable :-)
All I'm saying is, Chaos Space Marines vs Grey Knights/Dark Eldar/Space Wolves.
DeleteAnd of course the mouselings are more adaptable. You've got more to adapt with. I dare you to play with no magic....! That'll sort the Dwarves from the boys [insert smiley face thingy]
Jeez Tane suck the wind out of my sails why dont you ;) I seem to remember beating Skaven more than a few times but then I remember I was using my High Elves :(
ReplyDeleteGrumble Grumble Grumble
G'day John.
DeletePlease prove me wrong. I'd love to be incorrect in my analysis, and hear that the vermin got exterminated.
Oh and does that mean we Dwarfs should expect to play against Skaven all weekend?
ReplyDeleteUnlikely John as Peter W is using Swiss Chess system for draw
DeletePretty sure that after the weekend the Dwarfs will all be grumbling how broken the Lore of Metal is :-)
ReplyDeleteI'm not so sure. The days of legendary Dwarf armour are over, as shields don't really work with GW, so they're normally left back in the hold. Most Dwarf units will only have 5+ armour saves, some might have 4+, but not many. Did anyone bring ironbreakers....?
DeleteI think it's the Warriors players who'll lament the Lore of Magic. And the Dreaded 13th of course. You'll have a field day Pete if you play the list with 3 units of 20 Chaos Warriors.
See if I was Dwarf-like I'd be moaning that all three Warrior armies have the Puppet. How's that fun for me?
DeleteWell no-one is forcing you to 6-dice anything. And you do have a spare Grey Seer with a powerscroll for a one-off 13+ casting of Dreaded 13th. Even if he gets eaten by Daemons in the Warp you haven't lost your General.
DeleteI know you don't agree with me, but Skaven is a hard match-up for Dwarves, in the same way that Dwarves are a hard match-up for Tomb Kings (maybe everything is hard for Tomb Kings though....). The strengths that Dwarves have (artillery, anti-magic, combat) are mitigated, overwhelmed and/or avoided by Skaven. That's not an excuse for why you consistently beat me, but simply my take on the situation.
Like I said, if I was to bet, I'd bet that the Skaven will win. I'd love to be wrong....
Howzat!
ReplyDeleteAs a dwarf player who has played against and was beaten by Pete's skaven army (a great game by the way, thanks Pete), I will openly admit that there is a significant gap in the skill level between us, with Pete being a far more capable general than I am.
The key reason that great players like Pete win, is fundamentally down to how confident they are with their own armies, based on the amount of experience they have with their armies. This means they can plan what they are going to do ahead of time so that regardless of what their opponent does during the game, they will still be able to stick to their own main plan.
Although skaven have toys, magic, abomm's, etc. etc. I am certain that after checking the lists for the dwarf and skaven players that there will be amble opportunity for dwarfs to win the most games against skaven. However, it will ultimately be up the dwarf players themselves and their ability to use the army and scenario to their advantage against the weakness of the skaven armies they face.
In the game between Pete and I at Karak Eight Peaks last year, the scenario was Battle for the pass which meant that I had the chance to use the scenario to my advantage by increasing the distance between my armies and Pete's. I also had the list, with two stone throwers and three dragon slayers, that had a good chance to help make sure that when it came to combat the dwarfs would at least be fighting at 5-8 skaven to 1 dwarf odds.
The key reason I lost, was because I changed my battle and deployment plan half way through the deployment phase just because a hill in my deployment zone suddenly gave my units magical and flaming attacks. Plus poor use of my rangers. It was these simple mistakes against a superior opponent that lead to my downfall, because by changing my battle plan I lost the confidence I needed to make decisions in game to overcome my poor deployment and the way Pete used his army.
So if anything, a dwarf general who is confident with the army they have, and then stick with their own main battle plan should have no problem winning against a skaven army or any army. Based on my experience as a dwarf player the key things for a dwarf army to succeed against other armies, and especially against skaven are: getting deployment right first (this is the number one thing that needs to be done right, if you stuff your deployment your stuffed); disciplined fire towards a specific purpose (i.e. panic, reduce, destroy); and doing your best to know what you need to do at least one turn ahead so you can better anticipate what faster opponents will do.
That's my 25c grumble, and look forward to the next chance to challenge you to a rematch Pete.
All the best John, and GO THE DWARFS!! (And the Williamsons'!!)
Regards,
Adam Richards
Skaven and Dwarfs...always fighting like an old married couple.
ReplyDeleteAhem, I'd like to apologise for taking Pete's have-some-fun/smacktalk post and raining on it with some pessimism. I think about this game far too much sometimes.....
ReplyDeleteLooking at my posts, I probably went into too much detail. Sorry Pete, I won't be claiming any VPs for killing the vibe.
In conclusion though, go the Dwarves! Do the Ancestor Gods proud and exterminate some vermin.
Dwarf-baiting tane, a fun game for all the family.
DeleteYou know it's all tongue in cheek.
for what it is worth I think the Skaven book is better than the Dwarf book because the army structure is more multi-dimensional. The Dwarf book is pretty mono really. However there are things that can increase its adaptability e.g. anvil giving "magic" phase (which there is no defense against), gyrocopter etc.
However I find that most dwarfs don't want to give up multiple runed-up artillery or multiple 30+ warrior blocks. As an observation Dwarf players are totally risk averse - if they can have something that redues risk e.g. rerolls on AS, misfire table, scatter dice etc then they take it. All this costs and means you can't have the other toys.
Whereas us Skaven players are all warpstone-adled risk crazy gamblers :-)
Cheers Pete. I knew you were baiting, but I thought I was dragging the fun too far into serious-land.
DeleteI've heard your arguments about Dwarves and ultra-safe playstyle. When everything costs so much, we have the urge to rune it up because if anything is lost, it hurts bad.
The best armies seem to be those that reduce uncertainty, one way or another. Whether through unbreakable/ItP troops, multiples of cheap characters/troops, rerolls to hit, or by stacking lots of attacks (eg. Mournfangs and Furnace), the key to success in Warhammer seems to be reducing uncertainty. One example is Grey Seers, who come with Warp Tokens to help get round a poor Winds of Magic roll. The Skaven misfire charts aren't that bad, no worse than the Anvil of Doom with it's 1/36 chance of detonating and taking 450pts and your magic-defence with it. Given a choice between a 90pt WLC and a 145pt flaming cannon with engr and reroll, I'd think long and hard about which I'd prefer.
So I don't think it's just Dwarf players who like to reduce the odds. We're more obvious about it, but I'd argue that taking 2 Grey Seers and 20 Gutter Runners reduces risk as well...
Well it all depends how you play Dwarfs really - 7th Ed I charged up the middle, 8th Ed i either charge left, right or the middle. Other than that the only change is bigger blocks of infantry - good to see some variation in the Dwarf lists though.
ReplyDeleteYou see it's a cunning plan, I play Locky in the first game then after he curb stomps me I can go hunt the Dwarfs that linger in the lower half of the table while he & Pete have a go at any that slip through the net and don't get a draw.
ReplyDeleteOf course this way it may well end with Skaven top & bottom and just all the Dwarf players playing other Dwarf players each match right in the middle while they both hunker down in opposite corners and fire artillery at each other for the draw.
Dave A
Ssshhh thats my plan as well if you tell everyone then Pete will be all by himself in the Top half of the table with no one to play against
DeleteHa, ha, ha. Good call.
Delete- Adam
I think it depends on who is the better general. Sure Skaven are more up to date and have more toys, magic etc. But if put in the hands of a player who just relies on that, I can see Dwarfs pulling ahead.
ReplyDeleteGo Dwarfs!
Dwarf's are boring, so boring
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say that. I mean, I find plenty of enjoyment with my Dwarf army, thats why I picked them, their fun to play with, cool models, fun to paint and some good fluff.
DeleteI really depends on ther person. Some might say there boring, while others might say there a really cool army and they enjoy them a lot
Simon
I guess it takes all types, but I you will never get me to play dwarves. I just cannotforthe life of me understand how you can get any enjoyment out of deploying in a corner then roll dice in the shooting phase ignoring 4/5s of the game. At which point you pretty much either win or lose depending on how good your dice were... I don't get it.
DeleteFor the record I do like the fluff of dwarves, but the play style is painful...
James
And thats how you see Dwarfs :D. Which is totally fine. Some of us see it defferently though. You Might see the Dwarf play style as painful, where as I see it as a very unique way of playing warhammer. I mean why else are there four Dwarf armies attending runefang?
DeleteOO I could just be a boring Old 17 year old playing boring O;d Dwarfs ;D.
Simon
That's true Simon. One of the key reasons I enjoy the dwarf play style is because it actually matches their fluff i.e. shield wall to receive the charge of the foes, and then destroying them in true combat with honest steel and well forged armour to protect them from their enemies. If dwarfs did not play or have an army list that backed up its fluff, then I would find it very hard to want to play them at all, I would have probably ended up playing OnG's.
DeleteThe same could be said for skaven, since their army book and play style matches their fluff. Hence, the grumbling between skaven and dwarf generals I guess, because not only does the fluff put them against each other, but as a result the play styles end up suiting different people as well.
Go dwarfs!!
- Adam
There were 5 Skaven v Dwarf battles over the weekend and Skaven were thclear winner 4-1. it was 4-0 going into the last round where the Dwarfen foe scored a consolation win.
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to report I didn't have to play any of the recessive, regressive, and ultimately depressive race.
Big ups to the other four Skaven players who took having part of their weekend's enjoyment wrecked with such good grace. Feel for Locky, he had to face them twice.
Oooh look, some nice juicy bait just dangling on a hook.....
DeleteAll I'll ask is, how can anyone who took two Grey Seers and 20 Gutter Runners complain about someone else being a hobby wrecker?
How many times did you try to cast Dreaded 13th over the weekend? I'm guessing it's around the 30 mark ;) .
My rats died a glorious ratty death in the face of the dwarven wehrmacht. Everyone got gunned down starting with the General and going down through the ranks. There are reports that some slaves got away near the end....
ReplyDeleteBroken Broken Dwarves ;)